Letting Agent & Landlord won't accept me rescinding myself as a tenant Guarantor

eddddy

As others say, if you believe that the Guarantor agreement has become invalid, there's nothing you need to do now.  

If the landlord makes a claim from you under the Guarantor agreement, that would be the time to challenge it.


And/or if you believe you have the right to terminate the agreement, do whatever you believe you have to do to terminate it (e.g. write a letter). The landlord might disagree, but that doesn't matter to you.

If the landlord makes a claim from you under the Guarantor agreement, then that would be the time to challenge it on the basis that you had terminated the agreement.



(Out of interest, why are you wanting to stop being a guarantor after 5 years? Do you suspect that your friend might default? Or is there some other downside?

Leaving aside arguments about the validity of the Guarantor agreement, it might be useful to have an explicit written agreement from your friend, that they will repay you any payments you incur as Guarantor - if you haven't already got an agreement like that. It might be helpful, but obviously, it might take some time for the repayment to occur - or you still might never get repaid.)

 

RedFraggle

hitman126 said:

anselld said:

There is generally no basis to rescind a guarantor agreement for the duration of a tenancy.  So unless a complete new tenancy has been agreed the guarantor agreement continues and you have no grounds for complaint.

Well, there is a basis to rescind because I don't wish to continue in that role for whatever personal reason or circumstance for which I'm entitled to and should be my right to demand and/or uphold.

Yes, granted that the terms of the agreement may legally bind me to my Guarantor obligation, but to suggest there's no basis is factually incorrect..........in my opinion.

Unfortunately for you that isn't how it works. It doesn't sound as if you have any legal right to rescind your responsibility. 

Section62

hitman126 said:

Grumpy_chap said:

hitman126 said:

I signed to be a guarantor for a friend when she rented a property nearly 5 years ago. The tenancy was a 12 month AST. 

Earlier this year I decided it was time to rescind my guarantorship and so both myself and the Tenant notified the Letting Agent and all other relevant parties to remove my name from that arrangement and relieve me of that obligation. The tenant by the way has never defaulted on her rent to this day, throughout the entire tenancy.

It has been over 6 months since this change request was initiated, but what has since transpired has been a case of the Letting Agent and Landlord deliberately doing everything to frustrate me and responding with countless misleading email responses that they're still awaiting a response from such and such agent, landlord, some individual, etc, etc.

After months of putting up with their games, I recently issued them with a deadline and ultimatum that if they failed to implement the change requested jointly by the Tenant and myself by close of business Friday, 06 Oct 2023, I would report the matter to the appropriate authorities. They eventually came back to advise that the Landlord has advised that he'd like the Guarantorship arrangements to remain in place.

As far as the tenancy is concerned, here are some key details to describe the current status.

• The rent was increased a few years ago without any notice to me.
• The tenancy lapsed into a periodic tenancy more than a year ago, as no new tenancy agreement was issued to the tenant at the end of the previous term.

I therefore have a few questions for which I hope some of our esteemed and knowledgeable forum members here can assist with. I'd like to know the following:

1. Where or how would be the best route for me to seek redress to my grievance?
2. Would it be valid to lodge a complaint with the Information Commissioner's Office for continued misuse of my personal data by the Letting Agents/Landlord, etc?
3. I am led to believe that changes to the original tenancy, for example, the rent increase of which I was not notified, renders the original guarantorship to now become invalid. Is this indeed the case?
4. I am led to believe that when a tenancy lapses into a periodic tenancy, a Guarantor's obligation can/should cease. Is this the case?
5. Can a guarantorship arrangement continue in perpetuity?
6. Can a Landlord and/or Letting Agent impose guarantor obligations on a person, even where the Guarantor and Tenant, two main principal parties, have asked for that arrangement to be terminated?

Was the rent increase applied in line with the rules set out in the contract?

It is normal for an AST to migrate to PT if no action to the contrary is taken, that will have been set out in the original AST.

Responding to the questions:
1 - I can't think of any organisation you would escalate this to.
2 - In what way is your data being misused?
3 - Was the rent increase imposed inline with the rules set out in the original tenancy?  If so, it would not automatically render the guarantorship invalid.
4 - Why do you believe that?  The normal terms of an AST are that the contract becomes PT.
5 - Yes
6 - Yes

Put yourselves in the position of the LL / LA.  What would be in it for them to allow the tenant to remain but the guarantor to cease?
At the moment, the rent is paid by the tenant.
If the tenant does not pay, the LL / LA can require the guarantor to pay.  Who will provide that back-up if the guarantor has ceased to be a guarantor?

I note you say the tenant has never defaulted.  From a LL / LA perspective, the reason the tenant never defaulted might well be because of the pressure that would be applied on the friendship in the event of default.  Take that friend / guarantor out of the equation and the impetus for the tenant to pay might be less.

With regards your comments on my queries #3, 4 & 5..........please read up articles from the links I've added to my original post.

Adding various general links to your original post doesn't really help anyone help you that much.

If you want advice specific to your situation then you need to be more specific - for example with what the original tenancy said about rent increases.

theartfullodger

And the EXACT wording of the guarantee you signed (****'ing out names & addresses..)

Getting guarantees right is hard, many landlords & agents don't manage it.. but doesn't stop them claiming they are still valid...

propertyrental

* as others have said, guarantors have no legal right to simply rescind their obligations just because they want to, or their circumstances have changed (if they could, guarantees would become meaningless!)
* that assumes of course the guarantee agreement was properly / validly set up originally. Some are not
* so please quote in full the wording of the agreement, and full details of how it was implemented (eg signatures witnessed?)
* re the rent increase, if the GA guaranteed the obligations in the tenancy agreement, and the the TA specified how/when rent could be increased, then you agreed to guarantee (valid) new rents
* so please quote in full the TA rent increase clause(s)

Well, there is a basis to rescind because I don't wish to continue in that role for whatever personal reason or circumstance for which I'm entitled to and should be my right to demand and/or uphold.

Just to be clear, this is rubbish. If you genuinely believe it, please quote any relevant statute, or historic case law, on which you are basing this belief.

Perhaps you believe, morally, it "should be my right ", but legally it is not. Valid contracts, and valid deeds, are all legally enforceable. Parties to contracts and deeds cannot just walk away from them because "I don't wish to continue in that role for whatever personal reason "

anselld

hitman126 said:

anselld said:

There is generally no basis to rescind a guarantor agreement for the duration of a tenancy.  So unless a complete new tenancy has been agreed the guarantor agreement continues and you have no grounds for complaint.

Well, there is a basis to rescind because I don't wish to continue in that role for whatever personal reason or circumstance for which I'm entitled to and should be my right to demand and/or uphold.

That’s not a basis, it is a wish.  If Guarantors could just wish away their legal obligations there would be no point having them.

saajan_12

hitman126 said:

I signed to be a guarantor for a friend when she rented a property nearly 5 years ago. The tenancy was a 12 month AST. - to be precise, it was a 12 month fixed term which would then become periodic unless specifically ended by the tenant / court. It did not necessarily end after 12 months. 

Earlier this year I decided it was time to rescind my guarantorship and so both myself and the Tenant notified the Letting Agent and all other relevant parties to remove my name from that arrangement and relieve me of that obligation. The tenant by the way has never defaulted on her rent to this day, throughout the entire tenancy. - if this should be of comfort to the LL, then it is equally of comfort to you - if the tenant does continue to fulfill all obligations, then guarantee is just a piece of paper that won't cost you anything. 

It has been over 6 months since this change request was initiated, but what has since transpired has been a case of the Letting Agent and Landlord deliberately doing everything to frustrate me and responding with countless misleading email responses that they're still awaiting a response from such and such agent, landlord, some individual, etc, etc.- well that's poor communication which is unprofessional, but they don't actually have to respond.  

After months of putting up with their games, I recently issued them with a deadline and ultimatum that if they failed to implement the change requested jointly by the Tenant and myself by close of business Friday, 06 Oct 2023, I would report the matter to the appropriate authorities. They eventually came back to advise that the Landlord has advised that he'd like the Guarantorship arrangements to remain in place. - as is their right.  You can't rescind a guarantee, you can ask to mutually terminate if the LL agrees, but they have declined (as most would). What would you report? 

As far as the tenancy is concerned, here are some key details to describe the current status.

• The rent was increased on a new tenancy agreement issued about a couple of years ago, without any notice to me. - this is key.. was there a provision for rent increase in the original contract? If yes, its just fulfilling the terms of the contract you agreed to guarantee. If not, its debatable whether you'd be held liable for the terms you did agree to (ie the amount of rent without increase, plus damages etc) or the if guarantee would be deemed not applicable to the new contract entirely. 
• The tenancy lapsed into a periodic tenancy more than a year ago, as no new tenancy agreement was issued to the tenant at the end of the previous term. - irrelevant, that's implicit in the last tenancy agreement, they automatically roll into periodic.  

I therefore have a few questions for which I hope some of our esteemed and knowledgeable forum members here can assist with. I'd like to know the following:

1. Where or how would be the best route for me to seek redress to my grievance? - LA's complaints team for their poor communication skills. Nowhere for their decision on the guarantee, they don't have to agree to your request. 
2. Would it be valid to lodge a complaint with the Information Commissioner's Office for continued misuse of my personal data by the Letting Agents/Landlord, etc? - no, irrelevant. Its reasonable to hold details for guarantors. There may be claims under the original tenancy for up to 6 years. 
3. I am led to believe that changes to the original tenancy, for example, the rent increase of which I was not notified, renders the original guarantorship to now become invalid. Is this indeed the case?- potentially. This is your best shot, only if the rent increase was outside the terms of the tenancy you did see. It doesn't invalidate the original part, but could mean you're not liable for the increased rent. Debatable on whether it would apply to property damages as the property hasn't been vacated yet. 
4. I am led to believe that when a tenancy lapses into a periodic tenancy, a Guarantor's obligation can/should cease. Is this the case? - no, that's inherent in a tenancy agreement, that it automatically rolls into a periodic. [I know one of the links below disagrees, but it cites no sources and provides no explanation]
5. Can a guarantorship arrangement continue in perpetuity? - well until the end of the tenancy agreement ends. That's just not a known date yet. 
6. Can a Landlord and/or Letting Agent impose guarantor obligations on a person, even where the Guarantor and Tenant, two main principal parties, have asked for that arrangement to be terminated? - The other principal party here is the Landlord, who is incidentally the one most negatively affected by terminating the guarantee. You can't unilatterally demand a mutual arrangement is terminated. If the tenant wants to end the guarantee part so much, they why don't they end the tenancy by giving notice and moving out? That would end the obligations under the guarantee.. 

Some Useful Articles On This Subject Matter
Landlordlawblog
Citizens Advice
Robsols
Money Forums

Comments in line.. you don't have a right to terminate a guarantee when the other key party (landlord) disagrees. You may request it, but the LL may decline, as they have done. So now there is nothing for them to respond to. 

It may still be invalid, at least for the ongoing increased rent - that depends on whether the increase was expected from the original tenancy you did see. If not, then there's still nothing for the LL/LA to do now, you'd just wait for enforcement action and use this as your defense. 

RHemmings

There but for the grace of God go I.... (long story)

OP: I hope you find a way out of this mess. 

Ksw3

Is there anyone else who could take over the guarantor position?

chanz4

take them to court