Predatory sales tactics / s20 lies

MultiFuelBurner

As a long time freeholder I do find these posts very distressing.

Compared to the amount we have spent on maintenance from properties from the 1600's to present day these management company repair bills seem hilariously high.

You might as well be putting an artisan thatched roof on some buildings when the final bill comes in for the individual properties. 

tacticalbanjo

If you couldn't serve a s20 for two years after a property changes hands some blocks of flats would never be able to do major works. 

I got a s20 after exchange for my old flat. The minutes for the last annual meeting had mentioned upcoming works on balconies so luckily my buyer was already aware of the potential for the works but the balcony repairs were a lot more expensive and invasive than previously expected as there was a lot of hidden damage that only came to light when the managing agent set the s20 process in motion. My buyer was probably cursing me but we gave them all the information we had at the time of sale as did the managing agent. It was probably alright in the end as the block was well run and had a decent sinking fund but I expect the service charge increased afterwards to build the sinking fund back up to account for regular maintenance costs.

Robbo66

RHemmings said:

eddddy said:

Just for perspective - a freehold house might need a new roof as well.

And with a freehold house, you don't have a management company who inspect the building and issue s20 notices to warn you about building repair costs. So as a buyer, you'd probably have to pay a surveyor to take a look and give you their opinion.

So in that scenario with a freehold house purchase, you might have to spend even more money before you find out there's a problem with the roof - so you lose even more money, if you then walk away.

 

Roofs are definitely something I will look at, for freehold properties, and I will have a full buildings survey if my current offer (or any future) offer is accepted. 

But, given the mention of £45,000 per tenant above (and costs for painting a stairwell in another thread), it seems that it's often much more expensive for leasehold properties. I went onto checkatrade, and it estimates the price for replacing a roof as between about £1500 to £17,500 depending on the roof. This would make the price of replacing a roof on a freehold property closer to £0 than it is to the price mentioned per tenant for a communal leasehold building. 

That's something I'm seeing for a lot of leasehold properties. The costs of maintenance to the tenants can be very high. 

You're having a laugh, replacing a roof requires scaffolding and depending on the size of the building could mean all sides, this in itself would come to 000s, then you have the actual roofing costs so much more than £17.5k and definitely more than £1,500

RHemmings

Robbo66 said:

You're having a laugh, replacing a roof requires scaffolding and depending on the size of the building could mean all sides, this in itself would come to 000s, then you have the actual roofing costs so much more than £17.5k and definitely more than £1,500

This is from checkatrade, here is the original source: https://www.checkatrade.com/blog/cost-guides/roof-replacement-cost/

F37A

Tiglet2 said:

F37A said:

EssexHebridean said:

OP - think on this as a scenario. You buy a different property - Leasehold again as this is what you are currently looking at. You pay the same amount as you were intending to for the S20 property - because that is the budget you are working with. 3 months after you complete, and move in, a S20 arrives for identical works to the property you are looking at now - how do you deal with that, allowing that presumably your financial position will be exactly the same? If your answer is that you have no idea, because you have no form of emergency fund in place in preparation for becoming a homeowner, then the red flags should start fluttering. 

Home ownership is expensive. it's lovely, but nonetheless, expensive. There will generally be *something* that wants or needs doing. Some of those things you can wait, and do them in a timescale of your choosing - others you can't. Hard though it is, you must be prepared for that before buying. 

What I would caution against though is seeing spurious costs bandied about on a forum as being in any way indicative of the costs that might apply to your particular S20, in this case. Sure, that 45k "could" be accurate, or it could be that 45k was the total cost for the block, shared between 4 flats, or 8 flats, or whatever. without clarification, we'll never know, and even with clarification, it still could turn out to be completely irrelevant to your own situation. Until recently we've lived in a LH property. We were exceptionally lucky to have only had two lots of major works in the time we were there - one for electrical which was only about £500 per flat, the other was external redecoration, gutters, soffits, balcony railings, removal of some asbestos, groundworks and assorted other things. That was originally invoiced at over £8k, but was challenged due to the poor quality of the works and we ended up getting over £3k reduction on that. would I expect that the new owner of that property is likely to get a S20 notice at some stage before all that long? Yes - absolutely, one is now very overdue. (10 year cycle - the last one being in 2009)will I be offering to pay some of the costs for that new owner if it arrives on her doorstep next week? No - it's our good fortune on the timing, the cycle of planned works was freely available to her, and we declared the date of the last major works carried out. 

Thanks - if the s20 question on LPE1 is answered no would give an FTB breating space of 2 years before being shafted with any major works. They had said no on this one which annoyed me as they subsequently revealed major works. Someone lied about it in LPE1 to string me along. Would i have proceeded if they answered yes to LPE1 question answer would be no. 

At the same time, the shock of last minute bombshell has now settled and yes as you say "it could" be fine. Should a FTB be taking on major works flat is a question. Hardly any affordable flats in locations i'm after left now so not as many options.

The date on which the freeholder/managing agent answered 'no' on the LPE1 may have been true at that time.  There were no plans to do major works 'as far as they were aware' on that particular date.  That doesn't mean there will be no major works for 2 years.  It just means as at that date, there were no plans.  

If the date they answered 'no' is now proven to be a lie, because they did know about it on that date, then you have every right to feel you've been misled and should probably renegotiate the purchase price to take the works into account, or even discuss an 'allowance' being provided for it.  Bear in mind though, that the seller will not benefit from the works, but you will do. 

However, it sounds as though the answer of 'no' was correct at that time because the S20 wasn't known until subsequently at a later point during the course of the transaction.

Should a FTB be taking on major work?  The freeholder/managing agent doesn't know what your status is.  If there are urgent works needed or cyclical works due, then their role is to maintain and keep the whole property in good condition.  They are not going to be considering who is moving in or moving out and only doing works when every single leaseholder has lived there for at least two years.

The whole S20 process is quite a long process.  After S20 notices are given, there is a long period where tenders are invited for the works and the managing agent has to consider the costs etc before deciding who to go with and then getting dates of when the work will start.  The total cost of the works will be divided between however many flats there are in the block, so each leaseholder pays a share.  At the moment it doesn't sound as though there have been any actual figures discussed because it's too early in the process to know.

Yeah I checked and the s20 hasn't even been issued yet and they have no quotes. I extening my mortgage offer a month but have no confidence in them being able to get the figures and my surveyor to go in. Its a dead end transaction. 

F37A

Schwarzwald said:

F37A said:

MultiFuelBurner said:

F37A said:

MultiFuelBurner said:

F37A said:

NameUnavailable said:

F37A said:

Thanks - they won't even give me details on the works which is the difficult bit. But even then an estimate is an estimate it is NEVER actual. 

By definition and estimate isn't 'actual' it's an estimate - check your dictionary.

If you're not comfortable with the fact that there are some upcoming works pull out and buy something else, but all properties will need works at some point.

Misrepresenting facts to buyer on such material issues until a week before exchange is disgusting and despicable conduct.

Just bad timing all round but best the S20 was issued and came to light a week before exchange than after so you have a chance to do a deal.

What is the cost to you do you think of this S20?

There is a lack of information on details which blocks getting any credible figure on cost. The managing agent is so slow that i think we may just get timed out on the  offer. So effectively make a deal based on figures we pluck out of the sky or walk seems to be options. If costs are unknown it would be like gambling for me not ideal for FTB purchase. Perhaps if i was experienced investor with many properties then they yes.

So do you at least know the works proposed in the S20?

New.roof....walk.away or bargain hard

Paint a hallway.....depends on the number of floors and properties

Yeah its roof. The problem is my surveyor might cost it as x and the MA's surveyor may cost as y. if y>x then i'm out of pocket

Did you do a roof survey before you offered?
if yes, your surveyor shld have picked it up that the roof needs replacing.

if not, you took short cuts which now come hunting you as you exposed yourself to the riak.

ps: v same happened to me last year, FTB in 2021,S20 for roof replacement got served 6 months AFTER completion …. Not much i cld do, bad timing

I did homebuyers. The building survey which i guess is the roof survey you mentioned is expensive. Plus they rejected my attempt to do roof survey and both MA and vendor solicitor have been obstructive and lax in gettng authorisation for me to do survey - i think this is suspicious and perhaps i should have walked away at this stage

Jonboy_1984

I don’t know about the block you are looking at, but a detailed roof survey in our old block would have needed access to 4 different flats(three of which were BTL) and two additional access points over stairways.

user1977

Jonboy_1984 said:

I don’t know about the block you are looking at, but a detailed roof survey in our old block would have needed access to 4 different flats(three of which were BTL) and two additional access points over stairways.

A drone seems to be the easy way of doing it these days (or at least looking at the surface - obviously still trickier if you want to look in any loft spaces).

F37A

user1977 said:

Jonboy_1984 said:

I don’t know about the block you are looking at, but a detailed roof survey in our old block would have needed access to 4 different flats(three of which were BTL) and two additional access points over stairways.

A drone seems to be the easy way of doing it these days (or at least looking at the surface - obviously still trickier if you want to look in any loft spaces).

They outright rejected my attempt to do drone survey.

eddddy

F37A said:

user1977 said:

Jonboy_1984 said:

I don’t know about the block you are looking at, but a detailed roof survey in our old block would have needed access to 4 different flats(three of which were BTL) and two additional access points over stairways.

A drone seems to be the easy way of doing it these days (or at least looking at the surface - obviously still trickier if you want to look in any loft spaces).

They outright rejected my attempt to do drone survey.

Did they say why?