Predatory sales tactics / s20 lies

RHemmings

eddddy said:

Just for perspective - a freehold house might need a new roof as well.

And with a freehold house, you don't have a management company who inspect the building and issue s20 notices to warn you about building repair costs. So as a buyer, you'd probably have to pay a surveyor to take a look and give you their opinion.

So in that scenario with a freehold house purchase, you might have to spend even more money before you find out there's a problem with the roof - so you lose even more money, if you then walk away.

 

Roofs are definitely something I will look at, for freehold properties, and I will have a full buildings survey if my current offer (or any future) offer is accepted. 

But, given the mention of £45,000 per tenant above (and costs for painting a stairwell in another thread), it seems that it's often much more expensive for leasehold properties. I went onto checkatrade, and it estimates the price for replacing a roof as between about £1500 to £17,500 depending on the roof. This would make the price of replacing a roof on a freehold property closer to £0 than it is to the price mentioned per tenant for a communal leasehold building. 

That's something I'm seeing for a lot of leasehold properties. The costs of maintenance to the tenants can be very high. 

MultiFuelBurner

I find it hard to believe the nearest freehold property is £6k yearly travel distance.

What is your budget and ar a as I suspect you need to narrow your search and maybe compromise as to not get stuck with leasehold issues.

F37A

eddddy said:

F37A said:

Yeah but the only freeholds that are affordable are miles away from work to the point i paying 6k per year on trains. Plus social life is rubbish if i get a freehold which is not good for a single guy.

Just for perspective - a freehold house might need a new roof as well.

And with a freehold house, you don't have a management company who inspect the building and issue s20 notices to warn you about building repair costs. So as a buyer, you'd probably have to pay a surveyor to take a look and give you their opinion.

So in that scenario with a freehold house purchase, you might have to spend even more money before you find out there's a problem with the roof - so you lose even more money, if you then walk away.

 

Yeah but i have control over when to pay for new roof with a house. 

F37A

TBG01 said:

F37A said:

TBG01 said:

F37A said:

NameUnavailable said:

F37A said:

Thanks - they won't even give me details on the works which is the difficult bit. But even then an estimate is an estimate it is NEVER actual. 

By definition and estimate isn't 'actual' it's an estimate - check your dictionary.

If you're not comfortable with the fact that there are some upcoming works pull out and buy something else, but all properties will need works at some point.

Misrepresenting facts to buyer on such material issues until a week before exchange is disgusting and despicable conduct.

Let me guess, serving the S20 after completion would also be "despicable conduct", same for serving it 3 months after completion. 6 months after completion and so on and so on.

Based on your other threads, look for a freehold property because leasehold clearly isn't for you.

Yes any situation where the information is knowingly hidden and FTB has to pay up / works take place within first two years when FTB starting out is a bad situation really and yes despicable conduct. All lies are despicable especially on material issues that should be flagged on the advert.

And what evidence do you have that it was knowingly hidden, and if it was so obvious, why wasn't it revealed when doing YOUR due diligence earlier? 

You're (no doubt) conveniently leaving out that this transaction is now at the 7 month mark. You're also skirting around when S20 was served.

If the notice was served 7 months ago and hidden until now, you have a case.

If it was served last week,then tell me what this week's Lottery Numbers are and we'll take it from there.

Oh so what your saying is that it was an accident? they prevented me from doing due diligence ie survey of roof. 
The solicitor is looking at when s20 served. 

eddddy

RHemmings said:

But, given the mention of £45,000 per tenant above (and costs for painting a stairwell in another thread), it seems that it's often much more expensive for leasehold properties. I went onto checkatrade, and it estimates the price for replacing a roof as between about £1500 to £17,500 depending on the roof. This would make the price of replacing a roof on a freehold property closer to £0 than it is to the price mentioned per tenant for a communal leasehold building. 

Be careful about drawing too many conclusions about that £45k figure - until/unless the poster provides more info.

The building contains 9 flats - so that's £400k per building. I'd imagine it's much more work than a roof replacement, if it's costing £400k.

And the £400k figure hasn't come from the seller, management company or freeholder - the poster says they found it out from a planning application. But so far, the poster hasn't clarified that comment. There's usually no reason why a planning application would mention how much work would cost.

F37A

MultiFuelBurner said:

I find it hard to believe the nearest freehold property is £6k yearly travel distance.

What is your budget and ar a as I suspect you need to narrow your search and maybe compromise as to not get stuck with leasehold issues.

Sorry I meant if I bought a freehold proprerty then i would be so far away from work that it would cost 6k a year in train fees for it to work. My budget now lower with rates gone up. 

They are still fumbling around with figures. I don't even know if its workable. Its just a mess

EssexHebridean

OP - think on this as a scenario. You buy a different property - Leasehold again as this is what you are currently looking at. You pay the same amount as you were intending to for the S20 property - because that is the budget you are working with. 3 months after you complete, and move in, a S20 arrives for identical works to the property you are looking at now - how do you deal with that, allowing that presumably your financial position will be exactly the same? If your answer is that you have no idea, because you have no form of emergency fund in place in preparation for becoming a homeowner, then the red flags should start fluttering. 

Home ownership is expensive. it's lovely, but nonetheless, expensive. There will generally be *something* that wants or needs doing. Some of those things you can wait, and do them in a timescale of your choosing - others you can't. Hard though it is, you must be prepared for that before buying. 

What I would caution against though is seeing spurious costs bandied about on a forum as being in any way indicative of the costs that might apply to your particular S20, in this case. Sure, that 45k "could" be accurate, or it could be that 45k was the total cost for the block, shared between 4 flats, or 8 flats, or whatever. without clarification, we'll never know, and even with clarification, it still could turn out to be completely irrelevant to your own situation. Until recently we've lived in a LH property. We were exceptionally lucky to have only had two lots of major works in the time we were there - one for electrical which was only about £500 per flat, the other was external redecoration, gutters, soffits, balcony railings, removal of some asbestos, groundworks and assorted other things. That was originally invoiced at over £8k, but was challenged due to the poor quality of the works and we ended up getting over £3k reduction on that. would I expect that the new owner of that property is likely to get a S20 notice at some stage before all that long? Yes - absolutely, one is now very overdue. (10 year cycle - the last one being in 2009)will I be offering to pay some of the costs for that new owner if it arrives on her doorstep next week? No - it's our good fortune on the timing, the cycle of planned works was freely available to her, and we declared the date of the last major works carried out. 

F37A

EssexHebridean said:

OP - think on this as a scenario. You buy a different property - Leasehold again as this is what you are currently looking at. You pay the same amount as you were intending to for the S20 property - because that is the budget you are working with. 3 months after you complete, and move in, a S20 arrives for identical works to the property you are looking at now - how do you deal with that, allowing that presumably your financial position will be exactly the same? If your answer is that you have no idea, because you have no form of emergency fund in place in preparation for becoming a homeowner, then the red flags should start fluttering. 

Home ownership is expensive. it's lovely, but nonetheless, expensive. There will generally be *something* that wants or needs doing. Some of those things you can wait, and do them in a timescale of your choosing - others you can't. Hard though it is, you must be prepared for that before buying. 

What I would caution against though is seeing spurious costs bandied about on a forum as being in any way indicative of the costs that might apply to your particular S20, in this case. Sure, that 45k "could" be accurate, or it could be that 45k was the total cost for the block, shared between 4 flats, or 8 flats, or whatever. without clarification, we'll never know, and even with clarification, it still could turn out to be completely irrelevant to your own situation. Until recently we've lived in a LH property. We were exceptionally lucky to have only had two lots of major works in the time we were there - one for electrical which was only about £500 per flat, the other was external redecoration, gutters, soffits, balcony railings, removal of some asbestos, groundworks and assorted other things. That was originally invoiced at over £8k, but was challenged due to the poor quality of the works and we ended up getting over £3k reduction on that. would I expect that the new owner of that property is likely to get a S20 notice at some stage before all that long? Yes - absolutely, one is now very overdue. (10 year cycle - the last one being in 2009)will I be offering to pay some of the costs for that new owner if it arrives on her doorstep next week? No - it's our good fortune on the timing, the cycle of planned works was freely available to her, and we declared the date of the last major works carried out. 

Thanks - if the s20 question on LPE1 is answered no would give an FTB breating space of 2 years before being shafted with any major works. They had said no on this one which annoyed me as they subsequently revealed major works. Someone lied about it in LPE1 to string me along. Would i have proceeded if they answered yes to LPE1 question answer would be no. 

At the same time, the shock of last minute bombshell has now settled and yes as you say "it could" be fine. Should a FTB be taking on major works flat is a question. Hardly any affordable flats in locations i'm after left now so not as many options.

Tiglet2

F37A said:

EssexHebridean said:

OP - think on this as a scenario. You buy a different property - Leasehold again as this is what you are currently looking at. You pay the same amount as you were intending to for the S20 property - because that is the budget you are working with. 3 months after you complete, and move in, a S20 arrives for identical works to the property you are looking at now - how do you deal with that, allowing that presumably your financial position will be exactly the same? If your answer is that you have no idea, because you have no form of emergency fund in place in preparation for becoming a homeowner, then the red flags should start fluttering. 

Home ownership is expensive. it's lovely, but nonetheless, expensive. There will generally be *something* that wants or needs doing. Some of those things you can wait, and do them in a timescale of your choosing - others you can't. Hard though it is, you must be prepared for that before buying. 

What I would caution against though is seeing spurious costs bandied about on a forum as being in any way indicative of the costs that might apply to your particular S20, in this case. Sure, that 45k "could" be accurate, or it could be that 45k was the total cost for the block, shared between 4 flats, or 8 flats, or whatever. without clarification, we'll never know, and even with clarification, it still could turn out to be completely irrelevant to your own situation. Until recently we've lived in a LH property. We were exceptionally lucky to have only had two lots of major works in the time we were there - one for electrical which was only about £500 per flat, the other was external redecoration, gutters, soffits, balcony railings, removal of some asbestos, groundworks and assorted other things. That was originally invoiced at over £8k, but was challenged due to the poor quality of the works and we ended up getting over £3k reduction on that. would I expect that the new owner of that property is likely to get a S20 notice at some stage before all that long? Yes - absolutely, one is now very overdue. (10 year cycle - the last one being in 2009)will I be offering to pay some of the costs for that new owner if it arrives on her doorstep next week? No - it's our good fortune on the timing, the cycle of planned works was freely available to her, and we declared the date of the last major works carried out. 

Thanks - if the s20 question on LPE1 is answered no would give an FTB breating space of 2 years before being shafted with any major works. They had said no on this one which annoyed me as they subsequently revealed major works. Someone lied about it in LPE1 to string me along. Would i have proceeded if they answered yes to LPE1 question answer would be no. 

At the same time, the shock of last minute bombshell has now settled and yes as you say "it could" be fine. Should a FTB be taking on major works flat is a question. Hardly any affordable flats in locations i'm after left now so not as many options.

The date on which the freeholder/managing agent answered 'no' on the LPE1 may have been true at that time.  There were no plans to do major works 'as far as they were aware' on that particular date.  That doesn't mean there will be no major works for 2 years.  It just means as at that date, there were no plans.  

If the date they answered 'no' is now proven to be a lie, because they did know about it on that date, then you have every right to feel you've been misled and should probably renegotiate the purchase price to take the works into account, or even discuss an 'allowance' being provided for it.  Bear in mind though, that the seller will not benefit from the works, but you will do. 

However, it sounds as though the answer of 'no' was correct at that time because the S20 wasn't known until subsequently at a later point during the course of the transaction.

Should a FTB be taking on major work?  The freeholder/managing agent doesn't know what your status is.  If there are urgent works needed or cyclical works due, then their role is to maintain and keep the whole property in good condition.  They are not going to be considering who is moving in or moving out and only doing works when every single leaseholder has lived there for at least two years.

The whole S20 process is quite a long process.  After S20 notices are given, there is a long period where tenders are invited for the works and the managing agent has to consider the costs etc before deciding who to go with and then getting dates of when the work will start.  The total cost of the works will be divided between however many flats there are in the block, so each leaseholder pays a share.  At the moment it doesn't sound as though there have been any actual figures discussed because it's too early in the process to know.

eddddy

F37A said:

Yes any situation where the information is knowingly hidden and FTB has to pay up / works take place within first two years when FTB starting out is a bad situation really and yes despicable conduct. All lies are despicable especially on material issues that should be flagged on the advert.

It seems a bit like you've got so hung-up about section 20 consultations that you can no longer 'see the forest for the trees'.

Maybe you should take a big step back, and maybe pay much less attention to s20 consultations for the moment.

• Buildings need repairs and maintenance.

• The cost of repairs and maintenance will depend on factors like the construction of the building, the age of the building, the condition of the building, and how well it has been maintained in the past.

• Some of those repairs and maintenance will be cyclical and foreseeable - some won't be. (Some unforeseen repair and maintenance jobs can be delayed for weeks or months - others will be urgent and must be done straight away.)

• So firstly check the lease. It will often say things like the internal common areas must be redecorated every 5 years and/or the outside must be redecorated every 7 years. Then ask when these jobs were last done.

• Look at the building and/or instruct a surveyor to get an idea of how much maintenance and repairs will be needed in the near future. (e.g. rotten window frames, crumbling paths, worn-out carpets, dodgy roof.)

• See if the freeholder / management company keeps a maintenance plan - i.e. a list of cyclical/ predictable repairs and maintenance that they are planning to do over the next year or two

• Look at service charge accounts for the last 1, 2 or 3 years to get an idea of what repairs and maintenance has been done, and what it cost.

(And if any single maintenance or repair job needs to be done at any time, which will require a contribution of more than £250 from any leaseholder, then a section 20 consultation will need to be done.)

So you should really look at all the factors above - if you get too hung-up about s20 consultations, you're likely to miss a lot of very important stuff.



And it's completely non-viable to say "somebody bought a flat within the last 2 years, so we can't do any big maintenance or repair jobs".