So much worse off when tax credit ends and UC starts

Cutgrass

Spoonie_Turtle said:

Yamor said:

It is earned income. But you have to have an award of UC for this to be relevant. If you have no UC at all due to unearned income, then having zero earned income won't be sufficient.
You may be able to apply for help under the low income scheme (using the HC1 form).

Not with over £16,000 in savings.

OP, I'm sorry and I know it feels unfair, but this is the reality.  Any families in exactly the same financial situation but who didn't claim Tax Credits before the deadline for new claims will have been worse off for about 5 years at this point.  In the wider scheme of things, you've been fortunate to be able to claim the more generous benefit until now.

Are you definitely not entitled to anything from UC, not even if you qualify for the LCWRA element?  If you haven't already, I'd advise putting your details into benefit calculators as if you have no savings, so that doesn't distort the calculation (because transitional protection is supposed to help there).  Also make sure to include that you have a health condition that prevents you from working, or whatever the wording is for each calculator.

If the result is still nothing, then the government deems that you have the means to live (including your savings) and there's not much you can do about it.  The elected government at the time wrote and approved the rules for a stricter benefit than Tax Credits, and has subsequently set the thresholds for what is sufficient income for people to live, so that's what the country got.

Edit: no I may have been wrong; if you don't already claim PIP then looking into it and maybe applying might be something you could do.

We don't have any savings. 

I've been on those benefit checkers. Its not obvious where to put the income in from the PHi. I've just added to to other income you may have box. Dunno if that's the correct place. 

Spoonie_Turtle

Cutgrass said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

Yamor said:

It is earned income. But you have to have an award of UC for this to be relevant. If you have no UC at all due to unearned income, then having zero earned income won't be sufficient.
You may be able to apply for help under the low income scheme (using the HC1 form).

Not with over £16,000 in savings.

OP, I'm sorry and I know it feels unfair, but this is the reality.  Any families in exactly the same financial situation but who didn't claim Tax Credits before the deadline for new claims will have been worse off for about 5 years at this point.  In the wider scheme of things, you've been fortunate to be able to claim the more generous benefit until now.

Are you definitely not entitled to anything from UC, not even if you qualify for the LCWRA element?  If you haven't already, I'd advise putting your details into benefit calculators as if you have no savings, so that doesn't distort the calculation (because transitional protection is supposed to help there).  Also make sure to include that you have a health condition that prevents you from working, or whatever the wording is for each calculator.

If the result is still nothing, then the government deems that you have the means to live (including your savings) and there's not much you can do about it.  The elected government at the time wrote and approved the rules for a stricter benefit than Tax Credits, and has subsequently set the thresholds for what is sufficient income for people to live, so that's what the country got.

Edit: no I may have been wrong; if you don't already claim PIP then looking into it and maybe applying might be something you could do.

We don't have any savings. 

I've been on those benefit checkers. Its not obvious where to put the income in from the PHi. I've just added to to other income you may have box. Dunno if that's the correct place. 

My apologies, I misinterpreted your post with the first information about your circumstances where you mentioned transitional protection for savings over £16,000.  I inferred that applied to you and that you were seeking clarification about the PHI as well.

Maybe do a benefits calculation with putting the PHI in as wages, and see how that comes out.  It's not entirely clear how UC will or should treat it, so if you would have an entitlement if it's treated as earnings then I don't think you have anything to lose by applying when you absolutely have to.

P.S. I've amended my previous post in light of now knowing I misunderstood.  My apologies again.

Cutgrass

Spoonie_Turtle said:

Cutgrass said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

Yamor said:

It is earned income. But you have to have an award of UC for this to be relevant. If you have no UC at all due to unearned income, then having zero earned income won't be sufficient.
You may be able to apply for help under the low income scheme (using the HC1 form).

Not with over £16,000 in savings.

OP, I'm sorry and I know it feels unfair, but this is the reality.  Any families in exactly the same financial situation but who didn't claim Tax Credits before the deadline for new claims will have been worse off for about 5 years at this point.  In the wider scheme of things, you've been fortunate to be able to claim the more generous benefit until now.

Are you definitely not entitled to anything from UC, not even if you qualify for the LCWRA element?  If you haven't already, I'd advise putting your details into benefit calculators as if you have no savings, so that doesn't distort the calculation (because transitional protection is supposed to help there).  Also make sure to include that you have a health condition that prevents you from working, or whatever the wording is for each calculator.

If the result is still nothing, then the government deems that you have the means to live (including your savings) and there's not much you can do about it.  The elected government at the time wrote and approved the rules for a stricter benefit than Tax Credits, and has subsequently set the thresholds for what is sufficient income for people to live, so that's what the country got.

Edit: no I may have been wrong; if you don't already claim PIP then looking into it and maybe applying might be something you could do.

We don't have any savings. 

I've been on those benefit checkers. Its not obvious where to put the income in from the PHi. I've just added to to other income you may have box. Dunno if that's the correct place. 

My apologies, I misinterpreted your post with the first information about your circumstances where you mentioned transitional protection for savings over £16,000.  I inferred that applied to you and that you were seeking clarification about the PHI as well.

Maybe do a benefits calculation with putting the PHI in as wages, and see how that comes out.  It's not entirely clear how UC will or should treat it, so if you would have an entitlement if it's treated as earnings then I don't think you have anything to lose by applying when you absolutely have to.

P.S. I've amended my previous post in light of now knowing I misunderstood.  My apologies again.

When I put my PHI in as wages it says you can't have ESA as your over the permitted working rules for ESA. It still comes up not entitled to UC 

Spoonie_Turtle

Cutgrass said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

Cutgrass said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

Yamor said:

It is earned income. But you have to have an award of UC for this to be relevant. If you have no UC at all due to unearned income, then having zero earned income won't be sufficient.
You may be able to apply for help under the low income scheme (using the HC1 form).

Not with over £16,000 in savings.

OP, I'm sorry and I know it feels unfair, but this is the reality.  Any families in exactly the same financial situation but who didn't claim Tax Credits before the deadline for new claims will have been worse off for about 5 years at this point.  In the wider scheme of things, you've been fortunate to be able to claim the more generous benefit until now.

Are you definitely not entitled to anything from UC, not even if you qualify for the LCWRA element?  If you haven't already, I'd advise putting your details into benefit calculators as if you have no savings, so that doesn't distort the calculation (because transitional protection is supposed to help there).  Also make sure to include that you have a health condition that prevents you from working, or whatever the wording is for each calculator.

If the result is still nothing, then the government deems that you have the means to live (including your savings) and there's not much you can do about it.  The elected government at the time wrote and approved the rules for a stricter benefit than Tax Credits, and has subsequently set the thresholds for what is sufficient income for people to live, so that's what the country got.

Edit: no I may have been wrong; if you don't already claim PIP then looking into it and maybe applying might be something you could do.

We don't have any savings. 

I've been on those benefit checkers. Its not obvious where to put the income in from the PHi. I've just added to to other income you may have box. Dunno if that's the correct place. 

My apologies, I misinterpreted your post with the first information about your circumstances where you mentioned transitional protection for savings over £16,000.  I inferred that applied to you and that you were seeking clarification about the PHI as well.

Maybe do a benefits calculation with putting the PHI in as wages, and see how that comes out.  It's not entirely clear how UC will or should treat it, so if you would have an entitlement if it's treated as earnings then I don't think you have anything to lose by applying when you absolutely have to.

P.S. I've amended my previous post in light of now knowing I misunderstood.  My apologies again.

When I put my PHI in as wages it says you can't have ESA as your over the permitted working rules for ESA. It still comes up not entitled to UC 

Ah, ESA is also taken fully into account, if it's contributions-based or New-Style and would continue being paid alongside any UC claim.

That's interesting that it's not treated as earnings for ESA.  I wonder if that would inform any determination about how UC should treat it (and if it's not earnings then it's worse for any potential UC award).

Do you mind if I ask what kind of amount the PHI is?  If it's low enough then it could be possible that if you closed your ESA claim you could be entitled - ***NOTE I am NOT advising you do that, just speculating*** - but if the PHI is high enough to wipe out most/all of any UC award then you'd be better off just with that and the ESA.

You mention your wife being your carer, do you receive PIP?  If not then if you were to be able to claim UC, she'd be expected to look for work anyway (this line of thinking prompted by your post saying about her getting a part-time job).
If you do receive PIP then if she doesn't already claim Carers Allowance that would be another way to increase your income.

Cutgrass

Spoonie_Turtle said:

Cutgrass said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

Cutgrass said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

Yamor said:

It is earned income. But you have to have an award of UC for this to be relevant. If you have no UC at all due to unearned income, then having zero earned income won't be sufficient.
You may be able to apply for help under the low income scheme (using the HC1 form).

Not with over £16,000 in savings.

OP, I'm sorry and I know it feels unfair, but this is the reality.  Any families in exactly the same financial situation but who didn't claim Tax Credits before the deadline for new claims will have been worse off for about 5 years at this point.  In the wider scheme of things, you've been fortunate to be able to claim the more generous benefit until now.

Are you definitely not entitled to anything from UC, not even if you qualify for the LCWRA element?  If you haven't already, I'd advise putting your details into benefit calculators as if you have no savings, so that doesn't distort the calculation (because transitional protection is supposed to help there).  Also make sure to include that you have a health condition that prevents you from working, or whatever the wording is for each calculator.

If the result is still nothing, then the government deems that you have the means to live (including your savings) and there's not much you can do about it.  The elected government at the time wrote and approved the rules for a stricter benefit than Tax Credits, and has subsequently set the thresholds for what is sufficient income for people to live, so that's what the country got.

Edit: no I may have been wrong; if you don't already claim PIP then looking into it and maybe applying might be something you could do.

We don't have any savings. 

I've been on those benefit checkers. Its not obvious where to put the income in from the PHi. I've just added to to other income you may have box. Dunno if that's the correct place. 

My apologies, I misinterpreted your post with the first information about your circumstances where you mentioned transitional protection for savings over £16,000.  I inferred that applied to you and that you were seeking clarification about the PHI as well.

Maybe do a benefits calculation with putting the PHI in as wages, and see how that comes out.  It's not entirely clear how UC will or should treat it, so if you would have an entitlement if it's treated as earnings then I don't think you have anything to lose by applying when you absolutely have to.

P.S. I've amended my previous post in light of now knowing I misunderstood.  My apologies again.

When I put my PHI in as wages it says you can't have ESA as your over the permitted working rules for ESA. It still comes up not entitled to UC 

Ah, ESA is also taken fully into account, if it's contributions-based or New-Style and would continue being paid alongside any UC claim.

That's interesting that it's not treated as earnings for ESA.  I wonder if that would inform any determination about how UC should treat it (and if it's not earnings then it's worse for any potential UC award).

Do you mind if I ask what kind of amount the PHI is?  If it's low enough then it could be possible that if you closed your ESA claim you could be entitled - ***NOTE I am NOT advising you do that, just speculating*** - but if the PHI is high enough to wipe out most/all of any UC award then you'd be better off just with that and the ESA.

You mention your wife being your carer, do you receive PIP?  If not then if you were to be able to claim UC, she'd be expected to look for work anyway (this line of thinking prompted by your post saying about her getting a part-time job).
If you do receive PIP then if she doesn't already claim Carers Allowance that would be another way to increase your income.

Hi thanks for taking the time to reply it's really helpful. Yes I do claim PIP and my wife does get carers. My PHI is just short of £1700 per month after Tax and NI. 

poppy12345

Cutgrass said:

Cutgrass said:

Yamor said:

It is earned income. But you have to have an award of UC for this to be relevant. If you have no UC at all due to unearned income, then having zero earned income won't be sufficient.
You may be able to apply for help under the low income scheme (using the HC1 form).

All seems very unfair to leave a disabled family £560 less per month also not to be able to get free prescription. Very very wrong 

So what would happen if my wife got a part time job earning a couple of hundred a month. So then we would have some earned income would that make a difference to the free prescription.  Sorry for all the questions just trying to work out how to make the best of this terrible mess.

That will make no difference to entitlement to free prescriptions. If there's no entitlement to UC then there's no entitlement to free prescriptions.

Spoonie_Turtle

Cutgrass said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

Cutgrass said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

Cutgrass said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

Yamor said:

It is earned income. But you have to have an award of UC for this to be relevant. If you have no UC at all due to unearned income, then having zero earned income won't be sufficient.
You may be able to apply for help under the low income scheme (using the HC1 form).

Not with over £16,000 in savings.

OP, I'm sorry and I know it feels unfair, but this is the reality.  Any families in exactly the same financial situation but who didn't claim Tax Credits before the deadline for new claims will have been worse off for about 5 years at this point.  In the wider scheme of things, you've been fortunate to be able to claim the more generous benefit until now.

Are you definitely not entitled to anything from UC, not even if you qualify for the LCWRA element?  If you haven't already, I'd advise putting your details into benefit calculators as if you have no savings, so that doesn't distort the calculation (because transitional protection is supposed to help there).  Also make sure to include that you have a health condition that prevents you from working, or whatever the wording is for each calculator.

If the result is still nothing, then the government deems that you have the means to live (including your savings) and there's not much you can do about it.  The elected government at the time wrote and approved the rules for a stricter benefit than Tax Credits, and has subsequently set the thresholds for what is sufficient income for people to live, so that's what the country got.

Edit: no I may have been wrong; if you don't already claim PIP then looking into it and maybe applying might be something you could do.

We don't have any savings. 

I've been on those benefit checkers. Its not obvious where to put the income in from the PHi. I've just added to to other income you may have box. Dunno if that's the correct place. 

My apologies, I misinterpreted your post with the first information about your circumstances where you mentioned transitional protection for savings over £16,000.  I inferred that applied to you and that you were seeking clarification about the PHI as well.

Maybe do a benefits calculation with putting the PHI in as wages, and see how that comes out.  It's not entirely clear how UC will or should treat it, so if you would have an entitlement if it's treated as earnings then I don't think you have anything to lose by applying when you absolutely have to.

P.S. I've amended my previous post in light of now knowing I misunderstood.  My apologies again.

When I put my PHI in as wages it says you can't have ESA as your over the permitted working rules for ESA. It still comes up not entitled to UC 

Ah, ESA is also taken fully into account, if it's contributions-based or New-Style and would continue being paid alongside any UC claim.

That's interesting that it's not treated as earnings for ESA.  I wonder if that would inform any determination about how UC should treat it (and if it's not earnings then it's worse for any potential UC award).

Do you mind if I ask what kind of amount the PHI is?  If it's low enough then it could be possible that if you closed your ESA claim you could be entitled - ***NOTE I am NOT advising you do that, just speculating*** - but if the PHI is high enough to wipe out most/all of any UC award then you'd be better off just with that and the ESA.

You mention your wife being your carer, do you receive PIP?  If not then if you were to be able to claim UC, she'd be expected to look for work anyway (this line of thinking prompted by your post saying about her getting a part-time job).
If you do receive PIP then if she doesn't already claim Carers Allowance that would be another way to increase your income.

Hi thanks for taking the time to reply it's really helpful. Yes I do claim PIP and my wife does get carers. My PHI is just short of £1700 per month after Tax and NI. 

Oh okay, yeah that plus ESA plus CA would make a UC award unlikely.  You could try just doing a benefits calculation without saying you get ESA and CA, one with the PHI as earnings and one with it as other income, to see what you might be entitled to without those two benefits (depending on how UC did actually treat it). 
But either way you'll be worse off than you are now with Tax Credits ignoring the PHI, *unless* there were a case for transitional protection (which I don't understand and can't possibly advise about).

OhWow

Yamor said:

Of course, just because the system automatically does something does not mean that it is legally correct, but in this case I think it is, as discussed above.

Hi yes it comes through payroll from my employer and yes I get a monthly payslip. We have alot of trouble with tax credit as the PHI payment comes thought as a taxable earnings. We have to keep telling tax credit that this is from a PHI and they manually go in and change it but about every 6 months their computer flags it up and they write to me to tell me they are using the new amount. I then have to phone them to get it put back as a PHI. They say they have no way of knowing as it just comes through as earned income though payroll. 

Do you mean to say that HMRC would then agree to remove the PHI income completely and calculate your tax credits without accounting for the PHI income in any way?

I think this would have been wrong, and you've been lucky to get away with that...

They might not get away with having the £1,700 per month PHI disregarded. The problem for the OP is that Tax Credits overpayments can be claimed back years later.

Cutgrass

For the transitional protection. On the hmrc website it says: 

The Government has said that  no-one will be worse-off as a result of moving onto the Universal Credit, because the Government will provide cash protection' when individuals switch over to the Universal Credit. So that's another lie then. 

Cutgrass

Been trying different  combination of my income and to be totally truthful I'm more confused then I was before. I'm getting different answers back each time I do it. I think I'll just have to wait to see what pot they put my PHI in as I'm at a total loss now.