Tyneside lease issue - help

Gbears74

I life on a FF Tyneside flat and have done so for the last 21 years. When I moved in I was made told that I owned the back yard (usually shared) but the downstairs have a right of access.  We have even divided the yard so downstairs has so e social space and they have keys to the locked gate.
Problem now is the new owner is stating that he owns 50pc of the yard and despite me sending him every document under the sun it's still adamant that he owns it 
On our title plans the yard is edged in red so belongs to us, their tile plan only has the small bit at the front of the flats in red do they own that
In the drawn plan in our lease it's the same , yard is in red but on theirs the yard is hatched black
Their solicitor is stating that they own 50pc as there is an easement in the lease that says if the land hatched black is not included in the demise of the property (theirs) then there is shared rights of access egress and domestic purposes for the enjoyment of the property.
This is in our lease aswell but we have no hatched black on our plan. Therefore to me this doesn't apply although of course they have right of access, I'm not a beast.
Just going mad on this as to me the lease only states the right of use and access not ownership. It's the title that we own that gives us ownership.
Just wanted to come here for any thoughts before spending money on a solicitor to prove to them something that we already know and so should their solicitor.
Any thoughts/help greatly appreciated 

eddddy

You haven't really explained the problem this dispute is causing.

For example, are they trying to do something in the back yard which you believe they shouldn't be doing?


Or put another way, what is the reason that you can't just do this....

• They say "We own 50% of the yard"
• You reply "No you don't, you only have the right to use the yard"
• And then you walk away

I guess there is a reason, but you haven't explained what it is.

Gbears74

Sorry, didn't really explain well. .

Ultimately they want to divide the yard in 2 with 2 gates to the back lane which obviously we refused. This is how it all started.

I've showed them everything from the land registry as proof of ours the problem is that they are adamant they own 50%. The only proof they have shown is the easements in the lease about shared access. They are claiming this is their proof of ownership. 

Just wanted to avoid solicitors costs. Might just throw it back to them 'again' to come up with legal proof they they own 50%. Just going round in circles

eddddy

If you paid a solicitor hundreds of pound or maybe thousands of pounds to investigate this - and the solicitor sent them a letter saying "You don't own 50%" - are you confident that would make any difference?

Or would they just continue to say "We own 50%"?

FWIW, if you want, you can pay a solicitor £80 to £100 just to essentially send a letter saying "You don't own 50%" - without the solicitor doing any investigation, if you think that would work.


(That's probably what your neighbours did - paid a solicitor to send you a letter without doing any investigation.)

Gbears74

Cheers. My sentiments exactly. Loathed to pay loads for them just to get a letter as proof when there is enough legal stuff from the land registry in the deeds and plans.

Surprisingly enough they own a number of Tyneside flats so I'm surprised they have never checked a title deed before.

Throwing the ball back in their court to back up their claim legally.

Marshaltown

Which flat at this point in time owns the Freehold? The ownership of the rear yard may depend on which flat owns the Freehold Title at a given point in time. There again it might not. 

Gbears74

We both own each others freehold so they have ours which includes the yard boundary. It's a right messy one.
Land registry have confirmed it's in our title for the lease and have a solicitor letter from the previous owner of ours in 1994 stating the the yard is exclusively within our flat title. Having someone look over the leases now to get a bit more clarity

Marshaltown

Think the most equitable way would be just agree to divide the yard as the GFF owners have demanded. Not what you would want but maybe the best solution. Otherwise the whole thing could just get bogged down in "legals" and all the thousands of pounds accompanied with that.

eddddy

Gbears74 said:

We both own each others freehold so they have ours which includes the yard boundary. It's a right messy one.
Land registry have confirmed it's in our title for the lease and have a solicitor letter from the previous owner of ours in 1994 stating the the yard is exclusively within our flat title. Having someone look over the leases now to get a bit more clarity

I'm not sure I'd agree with @Marshaltown's suggestion above - that seems like a very "unusual" approach.


Tell your neighbour that they can't put up a fence - but I think most people would say it's pointless wasting too much time and money on this, until your neighbour actually puts up a fence.


Then, based on what you say, typically it sounds like you could do the following...

• If the neighbour puts up the fence, it sounds like it would be a breach of their lease

• As their freeholder, you could probably serve your neighbour with a Section 146 notice under the Law Of Property Act 1925 

• The section 146 notice would state the breach (erecting a fence), and must give them reasonable time to remedy the breach (i.e. remove the fence)

• If they don't remove the fence, you can apply to a tribunal to determine (confirm) that the neighbour has breached the lease. (i.e. The tribunal would look at the lease to confirm that putting up the fence breaches the lease)

• If the neighbour still doesn't remove the fence, you could start the process of forfeiting your neighbour's lease. (i.e. you repossess their flat)

The above would be the process with a 'standard lease', so I imagine it would be the same with a Tyneside Lease.


Take a look at...

Law Of Property Act 1925 Section 146
Link: https://helix-law.co.uk/faq/law-of-property-act-1925-section-146/

"12. YOUR LANDLORD’S RIGHT TO END YOUR LEASE AND TAKE POSSESSION OF THE PROPERTY (FORFEITURE)" 
Link: https://www.lease-advice.org/advice-guide/application-first-tier-tribunal-property-chamber/#
(This is written from a tenant's perspective - i.e. it's warning your neighbour what you can do as their landlord.)

Gbears74

Thanks both much appreciated. There is a fence up now which we agreed to with the previous owner so I don't know what the new owners issue is! They already have a portion of the yard for their private use and access so we are meeting and exceeding  every part of the lease.
I think the bigger picture is that the new owner wants to build a wall and put in a separate gate to the back yard so in effect cutting our land in half. 
I've asked them to provide proof what legal documents show they own half rather than have access to their property, but so far radio silence.