Wanting to cap gas supply

Mobtr

I couldn’t have put it any better than @matt_drummer. 

Taking the supply doesn’t mean using it, it’s taking responsibility of it which is what you do when you take on a property regardless of whether you use it or not 

Ectophile

matt_drummer said:

doodling said:

Hi,

But your experience doesn't seem founded in the legislation.  What is your understanding of the phrase "takes a supply" as used in para 8 of schedule 2B to the Gas Act 1985?

The use of the work "take" suggests an action is required by the occupier (e.g. that gas is consumed) rather than the mere existence of a gas supply - if your interpretation was intended then I would have expected the legislation to be phrased differently.

My legal training as pert of my accountancy qualification leads me to the following conclusion.

To take a supply would be to assume ownership of a premises where gas is connected, supplied, and ready to be consumed.

Unless the gas is completely disconnected it is still supplied and the new owner or occupier takes the supply.

Whether the new owner or occupier actually consumes any gas does not mean they have not taken the supply.

The key word here is not take but supply, gas is supplied whether you consume any or not.

That is how I read and interpret the legislation.

Quite frankly, I don't care about your qualification.  The law is very clear on the matter.

ArbitraryRandom

If 'the law is clear' then that should mean you have no problem providing a case reference for when the language and meaning was ruled on by a court? Given (I'm sure you know) that politicians might write the law but it's a court that decides how the law should be interpreted

Realistically, there's a good chance the law has never been tested (given we're talking utilities) as the ombudsman is non-judicial arbitration - and clearly the wording is ambiguous or we wouldn't be debating it now.  

Any documented examples of custom and practice (such as ombudsman's rulings or industry guidance) can be used to establish the 'norm' (which is not legally binding) - if you have any such sources? 

If this is such an unambiguous point of law then I would think it would be common place amongst (for example) landlords - who are liable for standing charges between tenants?

Mobtr

Ectophile said:

matt_drummer said:

doodling said:

Hi,

But your experience doesn't seem founded in the legislation.  What is your understanding of the phrase "takes a supply" as used in para 8 of schedule 2B to the Gas Act 1985?

The use of the work "take" suggests an action is required by the occupier (e.g. that gas is consumed) rather than the mere existence of a gas supply - if your interpretation was intended then I would have expected the legislation to be phrased differently.

My legal training as pert of my accountancy qualification leads me to the following conclusion.

To take a supply would be to assume ownership of a premises where gas is connected, supplied, and ready to be consumed.

Unless the gas is completely disconnected it is still supplied and the new owner or occupier takes the supply.

Whether the new owner or occupier actually consumes any gas does not mean they have not taken the supply.

The key word here is not take but supply, gas is supplied whether you consume any or not.

That is how I read and interpret the legislation.

Quite frankly, I don't care about your qualification.  The law is very clear on the matter.

Yes you’re right, the law is very clear, if you take responsibility of a property you take responsibility for the utilities regardless of whether they are used or not. Glad you finally realise 😀

doodling

Hi,

Please see:

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2021-08/Statement on Deemed Contracts.pdf

Paragraph 1.3.

I believe that the onus is now on those arguing otherwise to find later guidance from an authoritative source or a court Judgement addressing the issue.

Good luck!

Gerry1

@matt_drummer

@Mobtr

In 2014 Ofgem repeated its view that energy had to be consumed for a deemed contract to exist.

'Through our engagement with suppliers, we have identified a variety of practices, some good and some which we consider to be unfair. In terms of the latter, two of the larger suppliers apply a deemed contract even when a consumer has never consumed at a property. We are determined to take action to stop this practice as we think that it is unfair and it is not in line with our existing guidance (see Annex 2)'.

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/sites/default/files/docs/2015/05/open_letter_-_treatment_of_low_and_zero_consumers_of_gas_0.pdf

In 2020 the Ombudsman stated that 'A deemed contract is normally in place when a customer moves to new premises and starts to consume gas or electricity, or both, without agreeing a contract with a supplier.'

https://partners.ombudsman-services.org/resources/guidance-notes/deemed-contracts-and-rates-june-2020

QED !

ArbitraryRandom

doodling said:

Hi,

Please see:

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2021-08/Statement on Deemed Contracts.pdf

Paragraph 1.3.

I believe that the onus is now on those arguing otherwise to find later guidance from an authoritative source or a court Judgement addressing the issue.

Good luck!

IMO, the key phrasing there would be: 

However, Ofgem wishes to make clear that the interpretation of legislation is ultimately a matter for the courts. Further, the precise legal position will depend on the individual circumstances of each case.

In so far as an interpretation of any aspects of the deemed contract provisions is necessary for the performance of its statutory functions, Ofgem intends to adopt a case- by-case assessment of all relevant circumstances before reaching a view on any particular matter.

i.e the law is in no way clear on the topic and any blanket advice on the forum suggesting this approach should be caveated that it might not work.