Roofer Invoice Charging VAT but No VAT Number

MapleTrees

The quote is binding and if there is risk of incurring VAT, that is for the contractor to make clear. Based on what you have said they haven’t done this.

I’d recommend simply stating that you are paying the quoted price. Can’t compute why anyone would consider doing anything other than this to be honest.

This is what I'm going to do. I'll have to hope he then doesn't decide to do some 'accidental' damage to our property when he takes the scaffolding down. Cynical as that sounds.

Section62

ashe said:

Arguable as his scaff has the rig up you have him over more of a barrel as he will want paying either way and it's not your issue if you're backing out because of a 1/5th increase in price 

I'd strongly advise people never to imagine they have a scaffolder over a barrel.

benson1980

Section62 said:

ashe said:

Arguable as his scaff has the rig up you have him over more of a barrel as he will want paying either way and it's not your issue if you're backing out because of a 1/5th increase in price 

I'd strongly advise people never to imagine they have a scaffolder over a barrel.

Sadly, a valid point. But what do you do? Endorse their dodgy behaviour that is to be honest bordering on criminal by inflating a quote once work completed? They know what they are doing in this scenario and I don't believe for one second if they are acting in this manner that they even have an accountant let alone received legitimate tax advice.

I'd make sure I was present at all times when they take it down.

Section62

benson1980 said:

Section62 said:

ashe said:

Arguable as his scaff has the rig up you have him over more of a barrel as he will want paying either way and it's not your issue if you're backing out because of a 1/5th increase in price 

I'd strongly advise people never to imagine they have a scaffolder over a barrel.

Sadly, a valid point. But what do you do? Endorse their dodgy behaviour that is to be honest bordering on criminal by inflating a quote once work completed?

They aren't inflating the quote, nor is their behaviour "bordering on criminal".  The are legally obliged to add VAT at the relevant rate at the point they issue an invoice.  This isn't an optional thing for the trader.

Where they are in the wrong is not warning the OP that they were becoming VAT registered and the impact this would have on the invoice.

benson1980 said:

They know what they are doing in this scenario and I don't believe for one second if they are acting in this manner that they even have an accountant let alone received legitimate tax advice.

The OP says they have checked the VAT number and it seems legitimate.  The rest doesn't matter.  If they are VAT registered then they have a legal duty to apply VAT at the appropriate rate to their invoives.

There is something of a myth about all traders being rogue and seeking to rip customers off.  In this case there is no evidence for that.  Based on what the OP says I suspect this is a typical trader who isn't great at doing the paperwork and has found themselves on the wrong side of the compulsory VAT registration threshold.

That doesn't necessarily mean it should be the OP's problem, but without evidence it isn't fair to paint the trader as some kind of criminal.  Furthermore, the OP shouldn't assume there is financial wrongdoing by the trader - this may be a genuine problem they are facing, and it would be best to deal with them on that basis.

benson1980 said:

I'd make sure I was present at all times when they take it down.

Unfortunately that does depend to some extent on knowing when they are coming to take it down... but in any event, 'accidents' while removing scaffolding tend not to be the issue, as those are likely to end up as an insurance headache for the scaffolder.  They tend to be smarter and more subtle than that.

benson1980

Section62 said:

benson1980 said:

Section62 said:

ashe said:

Arguable as his scaff has the rig up you have him over more of a barrel as he will want paying either way and it's not your issue if you're backing out because of a 1/5th increase in price 

I'd strongly advise people never to imagine they have a scaffolder over a barrel.

Sadly, a valid point. But what do you do? Endorse their dodgy behaviour that is to be honest bordering on criminal by inflating a quote once work completed?

They aren't inflating the quote, nor is their behaviour "bordering on criminal".  The are legally obliged to add VAT at the relevant rate at the point they issue an invoice.  This isn't an optional thing for the trader.

Where they are in the wrong is not warning the OP that they were becoming VAT registered and the impact this would have on the invoice.

benson1980 said:

They know what they are doing in this scenario and I don't believe for one second if they are acting in this manner that they even have an accountant let alone received legitimate tax advice.

The OP says they have checked the VAT number and it seems legitimate.  The rest doesn't matter.  If they are VAT registered then they have a legal duty to apply VAT at the appropriate rate to their invoives.

There is something of a myth about all traders being rogue and seeking to rip customers off.  In this case there is no evidence for that.  Based on what the OP says I suspect this is a typical trader who isn't great at doing the paperwork and has found themselves on the wrong side of the compulsory VAT registration threshold.

That doesn't necessarily mean it should be the OP's problem, but without evidence it isn't fair to paint the trader as some kind of criminal.  Furthermore, the OP shouldn't assume there is financial wrongdoing by the trader - this may be a genuine problem they are facing, and it would be best to deal with them on that basis.

benson1980 said:

I'd make sure I was present at all times when they take it down.

Unfortunately that does depend to some extent on knowing when they are coming to take it down... but in any event, 'accidents' while removing scaffolding tend not to be the issue, as those are likely to end up as an insurance headache for the scaffolder.  They tend to be smarter and more subtle than that.

Yawn. What a surprise you spring to the defence of a shady tradesperson. It is a modus operandi of rogue traders. They know what they are doing 

Section62

benson1980 said:

Section62 said:

benson1980 said:

Section62 said:

ashe said:

Arguable as his scaff has the rig up you have him over more of a barrel as he will want paying either way and it's not your issue if you're backing out because of a 1/5th increase in price 

I'd strongly advise people never to imagine they have a scaffolder over a barrel.

Sadly, a valid point. But what do you do? Endorse their dodgy behaviour that is to be honest bordering on criminal by inflating a quote once work completed?

They aren't inflating the quote, nor is their behaviour "bordering on criminal".  The are legally obliged to add VAT at the relevant rate at the point they issue an invoice.  This isn't an optional thing for the trader.

Where they are in the wrong is not warning the OP that they were becoming VAT registered and the impact this would have on the invoice.

benson1980 said:

They know what they are doing in this scenario and I don't believe for one second if they are acting in this manner that they even have an accountant let alone received legitimate tax advice.

The OP says they have checked the VAT number and it seems legitimate.  The rest doesn't matter.  If they are VAT registered then they have a legal duty to apply VAT at the appropriate rate to their invoives.

There is something of a myth about all traders being rogue and seeking to rip customers off.  In this case there is no evidence for that.  Based on what the OP says I suspect this is a typical trader who isn't great at doing the paperwork and has found themselves on the wrong side of the compulsory VAT registration threshold.

That doesn't necessarily mean it should be the OP's problem, but without evidence it isn't fair to paint the trader as some kind of criminal.  Furthermore, the OP shouldn't assume there is financial wrongdoing by the trader - this may be a genuine problem they are facing, and it would be best to deal with them on that basis.

benson1980 said:

I'd make sure I was present at all times when they take it down.

Unfortunately that does depend to some extent on knowing when they are coming to take it down... but in any event, 'accidents' while removing scaffolding tend not to be the issue, as those are likely to end up as an insurance headache for the scaffolder.  They tend to be smarter and more subtle than that.

Yawn. What a surprise you spring to the defence of a shady tradesperson. It is a modus operandi of rogue traders. They know what they are doing 

My point was you have no idea whether this trader is "shady" or not.  You are making an assumption they are, apparently based on the false idea that all traders are "shady".

On the information the OP has posted there is no way of any of us knowing either way.

If I'm "spring[ing] to the defence" of anyone then it is the OP, by giving them a balancing point of view.  Because if they believe some of the poor advice they've been given on this thread and treat the trader as a "rogue trader" then they may make a bad decision in their ongoing relationship with them.  If the trader is genuine and has just been caught by compulsory VAT registration then the OP wrongly treating them as a conperson wouldn't necessarily give them the best outcome for their roof repair project.  It is difficult for a roofer to complete a job without scaffolding... and it can take a surprisingly long time to get replacement scaffolding when all the local traders are aware the client is a non-payer, or a 'difficult' person to deal with.

My advice to the OP is to tread lightly, and at least consider the possibility this is a genuine trader who has made a mistake in not mentioning their new VAT registration.

MapleTrees

Section62 said:

My advice to the OP is to tread lightly, and at least consider the possibility this is a genuine trader who has made a mistake in not mentioning their new VAT registration.

Thank you very much for the reply. This discussion is very helpful but by its nature it's likely to introduce a range of possibilities!

Be assured I'm not treating the scaffolder as dodgy (over the years all but one of my builders and trades have been terrific). However I am unhappy that we agreed a quote and we were then presented with a new one after the scaffolding had been erected, with a 20% increase due to his VAT registration last month. I had not budgeted for that. His registration appears perfectly legitimate, as I have already stated. He told us he registered last month, so he had plenty of time to tell us about the price hike.

I understand people can make mistakes, but I've worked with a lot of traders on my house project and they are all extremely switched on when it comes to bookkeeping. I certainly have not had this problem before. Usually costs will increase because the project has needed some additional work, which has always been agreed beforehand. I feel our scaffolder, good as I am sure he is, has acted unilaterally in failing to warn us that the cost of going forward would increase. That is where my gripe lies. 

I think I'll soon find out whether he has made a genuine mistake, as you allude. But in all honesty this seems to be a rather basic error and not one I would expect to see from an established trader. I've run a small business before (not VAT registered) and it would be unthinkable for me to agree a cost and then send an inflated figure after I commence, perhaps in the belief the customer won't remember the original quote.

 .......... On a tangent - the other occasion I have had cause for complaint was when I sent my car to our local garage for a service. We have been going there for 20 years and knew them well. When I went to collect the car I was presented with a bill which was three times the cost of the service. They had spotted some bits which they felt needed doing and they had gone ahead and done the work without even phoning. The upshot is I couldn't pay the bill on the spot. They tried to defend their actions on the basis that we had agreed additional work in the past (I stress agreed, after the matter was put to us) and felt we would have wanted it doing. They offered me staged payments but would not have released my car otherwise. Initially they refused to discuss it with me and said they wished to speak to my husband - they assumed the car was his. No trader should ever act like that.

Risteard

grumbler said:

Risteard said:

maisie_cat said:

As I understand it, if the work was completed prior to his registration there is no VAT due as the tax point is the earlier of completion and invoice date.
If the work is completed post registration but the quote was clearly excluding VAT then the VAT is payable

VAT liability will be at the prevailing rate at the date of invoice.

VAT liability is the liability of the tradesperson. Non-business customers don't care about VAT and don't need to care. What they care about is the total amount they were quoted originally and agreed to. If the liability arose after the quote, but before the invoice, it's not the customer's problem.

That has nothing to do with what I was saying. My point is that an invoice issued after the VAT registration date legally must include VAT.

MapleTrees

I'm thinking of saying something along the lines of:

“Our quotation clearly states the total price without VAT. The quote was presented expressly as VAT n/a.

I understand that in the time you quoted and the time you commenced the job you have been forced to register for VAT. I believe you told my husband your registration occurred last month.

Prior to the point of registering you would have been fully aware of when you were getting close to the VAT threshold. I feel you had ample time to notify us of a 20% price increase over and above the agreed figure. We would then have an opportunity to reject or accept the new quote depending on our budget.

I understand it is a misleading omission to add VAT to an invoice if it wasn’t made clear in a quote.

Our quotation clearly states the total price without VAT and I understand this should stand unless we had agreed to a new quote.

I appreciate that omitting to inform us of the price change prior to work commencing may have been a simple oversight. Nevertheless, your change of circumstances should have been made clear to us. I would therefore be grateful if you could submit a new invoice based on our original agreement”.

grumbler

Section62 said:

benson1980 said:

Section62 said:

ashe said:

Arguable as his scaff has the rig up you have him over more of a barrel as he will want paying either way and it's not your issue if you're backing out because of a 1/5th increase in price 

I'd strongly advise people never to imagine they have a scaffolder over a barrel.

Sadly, a valid point. But what do you do? Endorse their dodgy behaviour that is to be honest bordering on criminal by inflating a quote once work completed?

They aren't inflating the quote, nor is their behaviour "bordering on criminal".  The are legally obliged to add VAT at the relevant rate at the point they issue an invoice.  

What they really are obliged to do is to PAY the VAT part of their income, not to ADD it. If the quote was, say, £1.2K, the invoice has to say £1K + VAT.
£200 is their loss, not the customer's.