UKPC PCN - No T&C at Site, Lies on PCN, No evidence supplied but appeal refused?

BristolPip

I have just lost the appeal, however, when I went back to the location which is Reading Train Station, the only T&C's I could see on the wall were from APCOA Parking UK LTD and therefore I do not understand how a contract with UKPC could have been entered in to.

Additionally, the T&C on the wall state that a charge will be £50 if paid within 14 days or £85 there after, however the PCN that came through had £60 if paid within 14 days or £100 thereafter.

There is also a term that states "Vehicles must not be left unattended", so I'm not sure how a person that is alone can even get out to get a ticket without contradicting this term?

Additionally the PCN that arrived in the post said a PCN was attached to the vehicle, when it wasn't because the driver didn't even leave the vehicle, or even park. They had pulled in to make a U turn, no barriers or signs saying cameras in operation, then stopped to answer a phone call and then left again according to the PCN 7 minutes later.

Plus it stated the vehicle was present on site (for 7 minutes) during a the restricted no parking period, however the sign at the entrance states it's in operation 24hrs per day.

I appealed as the keeper and noted all the points above and requested proof of the pcn that was claimed to be attached to the vehicle, proof they have authority for the land, pointed out they have no T&C's for UKPC at the site and even APCOA's T&C are for less money and they refused my appeal and not even provided any evidence that I requested which I'm sure they would have to produce for a court claim?

I also highlighted that for those people that have simply paid either £60 or £100 then because they have no T&C posted at the site (and provided photo evidence) then they should refund them or at least refund them the difference between the amount they have paid and the £50 / £85 as noted at the site by APCOA. Otherwise to have knowingly overcharged and not make a refund is possibly breaking the law. 

Maybe someone can help and advise on the above if they have been through something similar with UKPC, especially if it was at Reading train station as per my experience.

I will now take this to POPLA and any advice regarding this etc, very much appreciated.

Looking forward to reading any comments / suggestions that anyone has?

B789

Are you sure there are not two different car parks at that station? Did you reveal the identity of the driver when you appealed?

Fruitcake

Where did the alleged event occur according to UKPC? The location should be on the NTK. APCOA normally operate at train stations and some supermarkets.
Sometimes you will find two or more car parks adjacent to each other with confusing signage as to which is which, and which PPC is operating there.

You should go back and get photos of the site and signage. Do a walk through of the route taken by the driver and see if the vehicle entered or passed through an area infested by UKPC.

Don't appeal to PoPLA until you have determined this, and post your draft appeal here for checking first.

patient_dream

Did you enter the staion via Vastern Road or Station Hill

Coupon-mad

BristolPip said:

I have just lost the appeal, however, when I went back to the location which is Reading Train Station, the only T&C's I could see on the wall were from APCOA Parking UK LTD and therefore I do not understand how a contract with UKPC could have been entered in to.

Additionally, the T&C on the wall state that a charge will be £50 if paid within 14 days or £85 there after, however the PCN that came through had £60 if paid within 14 days or £100 thereafter.

There is also a term that states "Vehicles must not be left unattended", so I'm not sure how a person that is alone can even get out to get a ticket without contradicting this term?

Additionally the PCN that arrived in the post said a PCN was attached to the vehicle, when it wasn't because the driver didn't even leave the vehicle, or even park. They had pulled in to make a U turn, no barriers or signs saying cameras in operation, then stopped to answer a phone call and then left again according to the PCN 7 minutes later.

Plus it stated the vehicle was present on site (for 7 minutes) during a the restricted no parking period, however the sign at the entrance states it's in operation 24hrs per day.

I appealed as the keeper and noted all the points above and requested proof of the pcn that was claimed to be attached to the vehicle, proof they have authority for the land, pointed out they have no T&C's for UKPC at the site and even APCOA's T&C are for less money and they refused my appeal and not even provided any evidence that I requested which I'm sure they would have to produce for a court claim?

I also highlighted that for those people that have simply paid either £60 or £100 then because they have no T&C posted at the site (and provided photo evidence) then they should refund them or at least refund them the difference between the amount they have paid and the £50 / £85 as noted at the site by APCOA. Otherwise to have knowingly overcharged and not make a refund is possibly breaking the law. 

Maybe someone can help and advise on the above if they have been through something similar with UKPC, especially if it was at Reading train station as per my experience.

I will now take this to POPLA and any advice regarding this etc, very much appreciated.

Looking forward to reading any comments / suggestions that anyone has?

Please don't take it to POPLA talking about the wrong car park.  UKPC do not operate at a station.

Have a closer look online at their photos. It's not the car park you think it is.

BristolPip

Thanks all for your comments, it's appreciated!

@B789 @Coupon-mad @patient_dream @Fruitcake -

I have Just checked the map and this is referring to a different car park to what I thought it was. This is partly due to the driver not even realising this area was classed as a car park, whereas the other car park that I thought this PCN was referring to, it is clear to see that it is a car park. This is why I thought that the PCN had been referring to that car park, plus this was the same day.

So this is referring to the car park on the other side of the station where there are no barriers to get in or out of the car park and it is all at ground level. The car also wasn't "parked" in a parking bay and had only stopped to let the passenger out during which time the driver did not exit or switch off the engine or lights etc. The short period of time was whilst the passenger gathered their belongings. As soon as the passenger left the car, the car also left the area. It was dark at the time due to it being in the evening and the driver doesn't recall seeing any signs.

So, now this is correctly located then it may well be UKPC's car park, although I'm not sure why they did not send this info back to clear this up. 

This still leaves the lie about a ticket being fixed to the vehicle as it states "Despite issuing a parking charge notice on the vehicles"which isn't true because none were fixed to the vehicle or given to the driver, plus the lack of any signs visible and legible whilst driving. In my last response I have only replied as the registered keeper because that is what I am. They did write back to ask if I was the driver, however I haven't replied to that letter.

They have issued a POPLA reference and offered £60 if paid within 2 weeks or £100 thereafter. I think the PCN is not a fair one when the car driver couldn't see any signs and only stopped to let someone out and hence why I'm thinking of going to POPLA, however I very short of time and even though I don't think I should pay, I'm wondering what my chances would be winning my claim with POPLA?

Any Ideas? Thanks again for the advice.

Umkomaas

This still leaves the lie about a ticket being fixed to the vehicle as it states "Despite issuing a parking charge notice on the vehicles"which isn't true because none were fixed to the vehicle or given to the driver

Date of the parking incident?
Date of Issue shown on the Notice to Keeper letter (not any 'Reminder' letter)?

patient_dream

Please say where this car park is.  The only UKPC car park I know is a small retail park next to the station
Entrance from Caversham Road, exit via Vastern Road

Fruitcake

Plan A is always a complaint from the keeper to the landowner and the keeper's MP, and it is never too late to do so.

PoPLA codes last 32 days, so do not appeal until you have exhausted Plan A. It is good that you appealed initially as keeper.

Does the NTK mention the PoFA and if so, does it refer to para 8 or para 9 of the PoFA? If they claim a NTD was given then it should state para 8.

If a landowner cancellation is not forthcoming then appeal to PoPLA using all the points available to you from the third post of the NEWBIES.

This should include but not be limited to,

Non PoFA compliant NTK
Not the landowner
No standing to issue charges in their own name
Inadequate signage
Dropping off/picking up is not parking
Any BPA CoP failures
Anything else relevant

For the non-PoFA compliant NTK, include a copy of the part that states a NTD was left on the vehicle but state that this is not true, and the operator is put to strict proof that one was given. Quote the relevant parts of the PoFA  plus state that for the NTK to be compliant, the details must match those on the NTD. Since no NTD was given the NTK must be non-compliant.

UKPC signs are always inadequate. The charge for breaching Ts and Cs is always in tiny font and fails the strict requirements of the BPA CoP. Quote the relevant part of the CoP. Include a copy of one of the signs taken from a car length away if possible. Use Google Streetview images if you can't visit the site on foot. (Park in the APCOA car park).

Dropping off is not parking as determined in Jopson v Homeguard, case number B9GF0A9E, where the judge stated this.

Complain to the BPA that UKPC (remind them that they were caught doctoring time stamps on their photo' evidence) claim a NTD was given when in fact this is not true since the driver never left the vehicle. I don't suppose you have dashcam footage do you?

Coupon-mad

I hope the driver wasn't named or implied in the appeal?  Sounds like they failed POFA. No keeper liability.

fisherjim

Was it here: