Freeholder problems - leaseholder proposals to an extension that will increase value of the flat

Feebs77

Ive only had the flat 2 years.

The previous owner bought the flat from the council, then became a landlord.

It is possible the previous owner blocked up the coal store to rent OR council blocked up the coal store before leasing the flat out to the previous owner.

I question the accuracy of council lease plans, as my lease plan shows incorrect layout of my attached brick rear garden store.

I'm just wondering if there's any merit in me arguing that the coal store belongs to me, as my basement flat would have had access and used it at some point in it's past. Nobody, really knows when.

eddddy

Feebs77 said:

Ive only had the flat 2 years.

The previous owner bought the flat from the council, then became a landlord.

It is possible the previous owner blocked up the coal store to rent OR council blocked up the coal store before leasing the flat out to the previous owner.

I question the accuracy of council lease plans, as my lease plan shows incorrect layout of my attached brick rear garden store.

I'm just wondering if there's any merit in me arguing that the coal store belongs to me, as my basement flat would have had access and used it at some point in it's past. Nobody, really knows when.

I'm trying to work out what's causing you're confusion. I'm wondering if you don't really understand the purpose of a lease plan (and a lease). I'll try explaining in a different way:

• The lease plan shows what you have bought and therefore what you own.

• If something is not included in the lease plan - you don't own it

(As a hypothetical example, if your lease plan showed that you only owned half your bedroom - then you only own half your bedroom.)


So it doesn't matter how long you've owned your flat; who owned it before you; what the previous owner did; who bricked up the wall - if the coal store isn't included on your lease plan, you don't own it.


(Once we've agreed on the above - we can move onto the separate issue of the garden store, if you want.)

Section62

Feebs77 said:

Ive only had the flat 2 years.

The previous owner bought the flat from the council, then became a landlord.

It is possible the previous owner blocked up the coal store to rent OR council blocked up the coal store before leasing the flat out to the previous owner.

I question the accuracy of council lease plans, as my lease plan shows incorrect layout of my attached brick rear garden store.

I'm just wondering if there's any merit in me arguing that the coal store belongs to me, as my basement flat would have had access and used it at some point in it's past. Nobody, really knows when.

As eddddy said some posts back, "I think the best strategy is to be friendly and as cooperative as possible with the council."  Trying to argue the council has made mistakes and/or you are entitled to more of the property than they think, won't necessarily be a winning strategy.

In addition to all the other hurdles, local authorities have a statutory duty to protect the public resources they are responsible for, which includes in particular their land and property holdings.  They would need to be able to demonstrate that any disposal (which would include a lease on the ex-coal store) is in the public interest and they have achieved a fair value for it.  They can't just give it to you.  There's a good chance the complexity of demonstrating probity in this possible transaction is one of the reasons why it has dragged on so long.

It is quite possible the ex-coal store was excluded from your flat's lease because the council felt it may be needed for some other purpose (e.g. utility intake).  There are other potential uses for it, such as the upstairs flat's cycle storeroom.  The council can easily argue that disposal of this room requires them to go through an open tender process, but as the costs associated with that may be disproportionate to the capital receipt, they wouldn't be in the wrong if they decided to sit on their hands instead.

Also, don't go drilling anymore holes in the wall.  If you don't know what is on the other side you risk causing a potentially fatal accident - either to yourself, other occupants of the building, or to someone with authorised access to the space.  Drilling into the council's space is not a good way to get them on your side.

Feebs77

Thanks for the feedback.

It was the councils surveyor suggested I drill a hole - off the record.
I am still trying to understand why he was suggesting that....
He also said their own surveyors couldn't put a value on the coal store - as difficult for them to calculate how I would profit. 

One of the main reasons I need the coal store is so I can access a deep ditch in my front garden, from inside my flat, to maintain a shared gulley as well as the higher levels of the garden.

At the moment, I need to upstairs, outside the building, around communal areas, then jump down the ditch which is a 1.1m drop to clear the ditch from leaves and make sure the gulley is ok.

No one can access this coal store but me - unless the upstairs flat wants to drill a hole in their entrance landing floor and drop down to use it and climb out again. It's a 1.5m x 1.5m space

I see no use for it to be tendered, as no one has access except as explained above.

I am just slightly confused about how best to acquire the coal store

If I demonstrated I would not profit, by getting a RICS surveyor valuation, as well as offered money - it seems like a bribe - which it isn't.
All I want is to access my front garden so it's easier to maintain. The council know this is my main reason.

I don't know if it would make any difference if I were to tell the council that I was diagnosed with arthritis since buying this flat, and that the changes, including the coal store would make it more accessible.

eddddy

Feebs77 said:

I am just slightly confused about how best to acquire the coal store

Make the council an offer.

Feebs77 said:

If I demonstrated I would not profit, by getting a RICS surveyor valuation, as well as offered money - it seems like a bribe - which it isn't.

Making an offer to buy something isn't a bribe.

Offer what you are prepared to pay - maybe £1, or £500, or £1000 or £5000. 

(Don't forget all the legal costs on top.)

theoretica

Feebs77 said:

Regarding the shared landing which is a party wall structure.

The freeholder trying to make me develop the landing, as an amenity space for the upstairs flat. (It would be part of the flat roof to my extension).

As I know there is no possible way I can get planning permission for that - I am going to correct the freeholder and not promise that.

Instead I am going to propose that it is a degraded structure. And if I am not allowed to replace it, then I will be applying to the freeholder to replace it (i.e. they would need to remove the asbestos, put in a new concrete slab landing as existing is cracked, and a new metal railing.

What do you think the best strategy?

Do you object to this other than think it won't pass planning permission?  I wouldn't 'correct' the council about planning permission - I would ensure you have a plan A and plan B so any agreement stands if planning is refused.   If they think that their property will benefit by this nice amenity space at your expense they may agree to more/a lower charge.  You want to keep their agreement even if/when planning is refused.

Feebs77

theoretica said:

Feebs77 said:

Regarding the shared landing which is a party wall structure.

The freeholder trying to make me develop the landing, as an amenity space for the upstairs flat. (It would be part of the flat roof to my extension).

As I know there is no possible way I can get planning permission for that - I am going to correct the freeholder and not promise that.

Instead I am going to propose that it is a degraded structure. And if I am not allowed to replace it, then I will be applying to the freeholder to replace it (i.e. they would need to remove the asbestos, put in a new concrete slab landing as existing is cracked, and a new metal railing.

What do you think the best strategy?

Do you object to this other than think it won't pass planning permission?  I wouldn't 'correct' the council about planning permission - I would ensure you have a plan A and plan B so any agreement stands if planning is refused.   If they think that their property will benefit by this nice amenity space at your expense they may agree to more/a lower charge.  You want to keep their agreement even if/when planning is refused.

The existing use of the neighbours landing is for access only.

So I wouldn't want to change the use to amenity at all.

Nor provide the neighbours with any amenity space on the shared roof structure. 

Quite alot of people  living upstairs in a 3 bed flat already and my extension and proposed works is supposed to provide more acoustic and visual privacy.

I would prefer to pay for the coal store.

Feebs77

I definitely know that the planning department would refuse permission to change the use of an access landing to amenity roof terrace - as it's in a conservation area, and next door neighbour had a planning condition put on their roof terrace - which stated roof will not provide any amenity space.

Feebs77

eddddy said:

Feebs77 said:

I am just slightly confused about how best to acquire the coal store

Make the council an offer.

Feebs77 said:

If I demonstrated I would not profit, by getting a RICS surveyor valuation, as well as offered money - it seems like a bribe - which it isn't.

Making an offer to buy something isn't a bribe.

Offer what you are prepared to pay - maybe £1, or £500, or £1000 or £5000. 

(Don't forget all the legal costs on top.)

What would be my reasons to pay, to the freeholder, to offer £1 or £500 or £1000?
i.e. after informing them an RICS surveyor advised me the uplift value would outweigh costs of the works to make the coal store accessible, as they themselves can't value it?

Section62

Feebs77 said:

I definitely know that the planning department would refuse permission to change the use of an access landing to amenity roof terrace - as it's in a conservation area, and next door neighbour had a planning condition put on their roof terrace - which stated roof will not provide any amenity space.

There's no 'definite' in planning decisions.  Each application has to be considered on its own merits.  Neither the conservation area status, nor the prior decision for a neighbouring property, have the effect of ruling out consent in your case.  If the council (as freeholder) think some amenity space would be useful then they can make representations to the council (as planning authority) in support of your application.

Feebs77 said:

eddddy said:

Feebs77 said:

I am just slightly confused about how best to acquire the coal store

Make the council an offer.

Feebs77 said:

If I demonstrated I would not profit, by getting a RICS surveyor valuation, as well as offered money - it seems like a bribe - which it isn't.

Making an offer to buy something isn't a bribe.

Offer what you are prepared to pay - maybe £1, or £500, or £1000 or £5000. 

(Don't forget all the legal costs on top.)

What would be my reasons to pay, to the freeholder, to offer £1 or £500 or £1000?

They have something.  You want to have use of it.  Legally they are obliged not to give it away for free if there's a possibility they may need it themselves, or someone else may be willing to pay something for it.

Your reasons for paying something would be to make it worth the council's while to give you what you want, at a price that the council could justify as sufficiently high if anyone challenges them over it.