Planning permission for tarmac driveway?

greensalad

Hello all,

We’re looking at getting a bog standard tarmac driveway put in. We currently have a small area of completely uneven crazy paving (maybe it was actually a solid patch of concrete at one time? Hard to say) that we don’t park on because it’s so bumpy and uneven. We then have some original chunky concrete areas in front of our garage.

We had previously planned to do block paving, which I know is permeable and therefore shouldn’t need PP. However the cost is so much higher than plain tarmac. The only person who looks directly at this area is us, as the neighbour opposite are on the corner and we point at their side fence, so I don’t feel too bad making the street scene look a bit car-parky. Most of our neighbours have the original 60s concrete driveaways or fancy block paving. Our plan is to put a hedge in between our house and the tarmac so we don’t have to look at it either!

The one thing I can’t quite work out is whether we need PP if we plan for drainage. As I understand it, if no provision is made for drainage then PP is required, so if we add a channel drain then would we need PP?

We also want to increase the size and use up some of what is front lawn. I think we can argue the current “pile of crumbly concrete” is a previous driveway, but we’d still be adding more than 5msq of driveway so does this mean PP requires?

Ganga

Any chance of some photos?

Richard1212

greensalad said:

Hello all,

We’re looking at getting a bog standard tarmac driveway put in. We currently have a small area of completely uneven crazy paving (maybe it was actually a solid patch of concrete at one time? Hard to say) that we don’t park on because it’s so bumpy and uneven. We then have some original chunky concrete areas in front of our garage.

We had previously planned to do block paving, which I know is permeable and therefore shouldn’t need PP. However the cost is so much higher than plain tarmac. The only person who looks directly at this area is us, as the neighbour opposite are on the corner and we point at their side fence, so I don’t feel too bad making the street scene look a bit car-parky. Most of our neighbours have the original 60s concrete driveaways or fancy block paving. Our plan is to put a hedge in between our house and the tarmac so we don’t have to look at it either!

The one thing I can’t quite work out is whether we need PP if we plan for drainage. As I understand it, if no provision is made for drainage then PP is required, so if we add a channel drain then would we need PP?

We also want to increase the size and use up some of what is front lawn. I think we can argue the current “pile of crumbly concrete” is a previous driveway, but we’d still be adding more than 5msq of driveway so does this mean PP requires?

You mention at the start of your post that you are talking about a "bog standard tarmac driveway". Yet, as your post progresses, you move more and more to painting a different picture which might give rise to some concern from residents of your street and indeed the locality. For example, you mention widening the present drive, you are taking up your front lawn, you don't feel "guilty" for making it " a bit car-parky" and it sounds so awful that you are going to try and hide it from your own view from your home by planting a hedge or trees ( when others seeing it , whether neighbours or passers-by, have to put up with what sound more and more like an eyesore, with no tree barrier for them). Perhaps you might consider feeling a bit guilty.

It sounds a bit like you are creating a mini-car park for several cars----and not a driveway which takes your car from the road into the garage. But do you use your garage at all for housing a car or is it a storage area ? Indeed, do you have a garage at the end of the driveway ? How many cars will be parked on your new "driveway"?

If other neighbours are proud enough of their street to put down "fancy block paving" ( always aesthetically pleasing and not needing PP) , why can't you do the same thing in order to make the whole street a pleasing scene instead of lowering standards which will not only be aesthetically displeasing but may even lower neighbours' house prices ?

Having looked at the law about whether planning permission is needed, it seems to me as though PP is needed for the driveway itself if tar and not resin is used ( for drainage purposes) and even more needed for the additional area that was once part of your front garden, especially if it is made of tar ( which is not permeable, as opposed to resin which is porous). Perhaps that may give residents of the street to provide their views.

FreeBear

Richard1212 said: Having looked at the law about whether planning permission is needed, it seems to me as though PP is needed for the driveway itself if tar and not resin is used ( for drainage purposes) and even more needed for the additional area that was once part of your front garden, especially if it is made of tar ( which is not permeable, as opposed to resin which is porous).

Resin bonded is not permeable, where as resin bound is (but only if laid on a permeable base). You can also get permeable tarmac surfaces.. Neither are cheap though.

At the cheap end of the market with block paving, the likes of Marshalls do not claim that their blocks are permeable - The ones that they do sell as permeable, have a larger gap between the blocks and only work if you brush sand in. So no polymeric sands or grouts. That said, I used the cheaper non-permeable blocks from Marshall for my drive, and water certainly seems to drain away through the minimal gaps quite effectively.

As for planning permission, I would agree. It probably is required for a tarmac or resin surface - I would have another look at the cost of block paving though. The bulk of the cost is in the preparation of the base. Regardless of surface, you are looking to dig down at least 200mm, and put down 150mm or more of compacted hardcore (MOT1 or crusher runs, not lumps of ruble).

greensalad

Richard1212 said:

You mention at the start of your post that you are talking about a "bog standard tarmac driveway". Yet, as your post progresses, you move more and more to painting a different picture which might give rise to some concern from residents of your street and indeed the locality. For example, you mention widening the present drive, you are taking up your front lawn, you don't feel "guilty" for making it " a bit car-parky" and it sounds so awful that you are going to try and hide it from your own view from your home by planting a hedge or trees ( when others seeing it , whether neighbours or passers-by, have to put up with what sound more and more like an eyesore, with no tree barrier for them). Perhaps you might consider feeling a bit guilty.

It sounds a bit like you are creating a mini-car park for several cars----and not a driveway which takes your car from the road into the garage. But do you use your garage at all for housing a car or is it a storage area ? Indeed, do you have a garage at the end of the driveway ? How many cars will be parked on your new "driveway"?

To be frank, my neighbours have a huge mix of driveway styles and none are particularly attractive. The majority are cracked 1960s concrete. There are two with tarmac driveways, so it’s OK for them but not for me? They are in a prominent position on the street.

There are no passers by to my house. There is no pavement in front of my house. Yes, I plan to block the view from my own house because I am the only house who sees it. My next door neighbour has hedges that would obscure his view of any driveway and my opposite neighbour, as stated, points away from my house (my house points at their side fence).

I'm not planning on removing my entire lawn. My front garden is 40ft long, I'm planning to resurface the front part of it into tarmac, which is going to look infinitely better than what I currently have.

We have one car that doesn’t go in the garage. We would like to get another car in the future but don’t want to until we can park it off street as we don’t want to litter the street with more cars than it can cope with (being a responsible neighbour, see).

The reason we don’t want to go for block paving, as stated, is cost. It’s triple the price of tarmac. Resin is almost as much. Gravel is also cheap but not something we want, tarmac is simple and cheap.

From my reading around planning permission, it is required in instances where water run-off is not considered and therefore could be denied permission on the grounds that it would cause flooding issues. It is not an opportunity for my neighbours to decide if they like the look of it or not and therefore would likely be granted if water run-off is considered, regardless of neighbour's views on the aesthetics of it. This comes from having read previous planning applications and seeing why they were granted. Generally functional changes are granted, even in cases where people have submitted comments about the looks. And especially so when they, for the majority, have generally considered "unattractive" driveway styles themselves, meaning the streetscene is unchanged. There are two houses within visibility of mine that have block paving. The other 6 I can see have tarmac or concrete.

greensalad

FreeBear said:

Richard1212 said: Having looked at the law about whether planning permission is needed, it seems to me as though PP is needed for the driveway itself if tar and not resin is used ( for drainage purposes) and even more needed for the additional area that was once part of your front garden, especially if it is made of tar ( which is not permeable, as opposed to resin which is porous).

Resin bonded is not permeable, where as resin bound is (but only if laid on a permeable base). You can also get permeable tarmac surfaces.. Neither are cheap though.

At the cheap end of the market with block paving, the likes of Marshalls do not claim that their blocks are permeable - The ones that they do sell as permeable, have a larger gap between the blocks and only work if you brush sand in. So no polymeric sands or grouts. That said, I used the cheaper non-permeable blocks from Marshall for my drive, and water certainly seems to drain away through the minimal gaps quite effectively.

As for planning permission, I would agree. It probably is required for a tarmac or resin surface - I would have another look at the cost of block paving though. The bulk of the cost is in the preparation of the base. Regardless of surface, you are looking to dig down at least 200mm, and put down 150mm or more of compacted hardcore (MOT1 or crusher runs, not lumps of ruble).

I was quote £8k for the Marshall's block paved driveway. They said at the time tarmac would be much cheaper but I didn't get the quote. So I'm guessing what you're saying is the preparation part costs the same regardless, but it's just the final part of laying the actual driveway that would be cheaper?

greensalad

Here are some pics to help. This is the current drive I have:

Here you can see the width of my front garden, and where the pavement ends. I wish to widen the drive all the way to the boundary (which is basically the end of this photo on the left). Also remove the large patch of concrete around the drain. 



In terms of extending into my front garden aside from the widening, it's a few feet to bring it in line with the concrete pad that the bins sit on top. To allow me to park 2-3 cars off street. (2 on the drive, 1 in front of the garage, good if someone comes to visit). 



I suppose in Richard above's mind, turning my current beautiful drive into a car park is going to upset my neighbours greatly. The block paving being much more expensive means my beautiful current drive will have to remain like this for a fair few more years. I'm sure my neighbours will be pleased this architectural dream remains.

FreeBear

greensalad said: To be frank, my neighbours have a huge mix of driveway styles and none are particularly attractive. The majority are cracked 1960s concrete. There are two with tarmac driveways, so it’s OK for them but not for me? They are in a prominent position on the street.

Don't know when drives fell under the remit of Planning, but your neighbours may have had the work done before it became a requirement. If done recently, it could be that they didn't bother with filing an application and the council are unaware.

greensalad said: I was quote £8k for the Marshall's block paved driveway. They said at the time tarmac would be much cheaper but I didn't get the quote. So I'm guessing what you're saying is the preparation part costs the same regardless, but it's just the final part of laying the actual driveway that would be cheaper?

Tarmac would be quicker to put down once the base has been prepared, but the material cost would be higher. Block paving can be had for little under £30 per square metre, but is labour intensive to lay - It isn't difficult, and I found it quite therapeutic. Took about a week to lay ~25m² on my own.

Ectophile

You may find that the council have no problem with you tarmacing your drive, privided that you install a land drain at the appropriate point.

The main reason planning was extended to driveways is the poblem of water pouring off people's driveways and flooding the roads.

greensalad

Ectophile said:

You may find that the council have no problem with you tarmacing your drive, privided that you install a land drain at the appropriate point.

The main reason planning was extended to driveways is the poblem of water pouring off people's driveways and flooding the roads.

Yeah this is what I'm trying to figure out. My thought was to put a channel drain in the section nearest the road so that it is not soaking away into the public drain. 

greensalad

FreeBear said:

greensalad said: To be frank, my neighbours have a huge mix of driveway styles and none are particularly attractive. The majority are cracked 1960s concrete. There are two with tarmac driveways, so it’s OK for them but not for me? They are in a prominent position on the street.

Don't know when drives fell under the remit of Planning, but your neighbours may have had the work done before it became a requirement. If done recently, it could be that they didn't bother with filing an application and the council are unaware.

I wasn’t suggesting that they didn’t have planning, more that it would be hypocritical for them to object to the planning on aesthetic reasons when they themselves have tarmac driveways.