PiP Tribunal, grounds for appeal or start again?

cozzie

Just come back from my PiP Tribunal and feel so exasperated and miserable with how things went.

Quick synopsis - I have nocturnal epilepsy, A.S/Rheumatoid Arthritis, M.E, various forms of anaemia and depression, all of which exhausts me and causes me great pain, yet with very careful time management and LOTS of sleep I can work for about 12hrs a week spread out across the week and I really want to keep doing this for as long as I can because it helps my mental wellbeing. Unfortunately, my home and household chores are normally neglected because of this kind of balance I've managed to achieve.

During the hearing my son (who has been my carer/support) was told not to interject or speak until the end which completely took him aback and he spent the remainder of the time trying not to cry, and I was told that they would only be assessing me based upon my health when I was originally assessed, which was last October (applied last June so have been battling with them for 14months now), even though I provided them with further evidence which shows how my health has continue to decline since then. Results - my award was raised from 0 to 7 points.

Q - do I have a case for an Upper Tribunal hearing given that my witness/support was not allowed to speak at MY hearing when he needed to correct what I had said or underplayed (e.g. how can I describe what happens when I have a seizure, I'm not conscious!), or, do I reapply AND can I ask that this application be backdated to last October because the interim period hasn't been taken into account?

Alice_Holt

cozzie said:

Just come back from my PiP Tribunal and feel so exasperated and miserable with how things went.

Quick synopsis - I have nocturnal epilepsy, A.S/Rheumatoid Arthritis, M.E, various forms of anaemia and depression, all of which exhausts me and causes me great pain, yet with very careful time management and LOTS of sleep I can work for about 12hrs a week spread out across the week and I really want to keep doing this for as long as I can because it helps my mental wellbeing. Unfortunately, my home and household chores are normally neglected because of this kind of balance I've managed to achieve.

During the hearing my son (who has been my carer/support) was told not to interject or speak until the end which completely took him aback and he spent the remainder of the time trying not to cry, and I was told that they would only be assessing me based upon my health when I was originally assessed, which was last October (applied last June so have been battling with them for 14months now), even though I provided them with further evidence which shows how my health has continue to decline since then. Results - my award was raised from 0 to 7 points.

Q - do I have a case for an Upper Tribunal hearing given that my witness/support was not allowed to speak at MY hearing when he needed to correct what I had said or underplayed (e.g. how can I describe what happens when I have a seizure, I'm not conscious!), or, do I reapply AND can I ask that this application be backdated to last October because the interim period hasn't been taken into account?

         Probably not.  The tribunal judge can determine how the hearing is ordered. It is not uncommon for 3rd parties to be invited to speak at a particular point in the hearing. 
      Any UT appeal has to be on the basis of an error in law made by the FTT. You cannot simply have a re-run of your appeal by an UT.

      Any new application you make cannot be backdated.

    It is correct that the tribunal assessed your health and abilities at the time that the DWP decision was made. They are there to determine if the correct decision was made by the DWP not to assess your possible entitlement to PIP at the date of the hearing.


    You write "my home and household chores are normally neglected because of this kind of balance I've managed to achieve.".
   This is not what PIP is about, it looks at your personal care needs not household chores. 

   If you do reapply, do so with the help of your local advice charity. You need someone who knows about PIP, and you need a well written PIP form that clearly explains why you cannot perform the PIP activities and descriptors reliably on the majority of days.

  https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/sick-or-disabled-people-and-carers/pip/help-with-your-claim/fill-in-form-pip/

 https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/sick-or-disabled-people-and-carers/pip/help-with-your-claim/how-decisions-are-made/

    
   

Muttleythefrog

Agree with Alice. My view is you might have to chalk this up to experience. And that experience may very well be helpful to making a new claim with your current deteriorated circumstances. 

Key is to focus on the 12 activities (or at least those relevant) for daily living/mobility and try to cover how your disablements affect you in relation to the activities particularly focusing on and around where the point scoring descriptors are relevant as you think. The tribunal decision itself may be useful to understand how others have interpreted what your disablements are in relation to the activities and how that manifests.

Your son could always write a statement as evidence to send with any other when you  fill into the lengthy application form.. but again it should focus on the activities... and remember that to be considered able to perform an activity you must be able to do so reliably... which means safely, to acceptable standard, repeatedly and in reasonable time. 

If you don't think you have the disposition suited to describing your problems accurately (such as by not underplaying them) in relation to the activities then seek support of CAB or the like.

Good luck and try not to give up... you got close to an award. I remember having a particularly bad experience at a DLA tribunal... an experience that defied belief frankly as the GP panellist threatened to come over and punch me... but generally out there the experience is good and it is unfortunate the tribunal in your case felt your son not of value in evidence giving but they may have good cause for that... for example they may assume a seizure is a high risk event and the details of what then happens may not be particularly important to determining that risk in relation to the activity to decide whether you can do it for the majority of the time.

poppy12345

cozzie said:

 even though I provided them with further evidence which shows how my health has continue to decline since then. Results - my award was raised from 0 to 7 points.

This may have been what caused the refusal. Sounds like to me that you may have concentrated on the wrong thing.

cozzie said:

 how can I describe what happens when I have a seizure, I'm not conscious!),

Your son could have written a letter of support to explain exactly what happens and what happens after you've had the seizure. Do you have an "aura" before you have a seizure so that you can get to satey before it happens?

Alice_Holt

"how can I describe what happens when I have a seizure, I'm not conscious!"

Nocturnal epilepsy will be a difficult condition for a PIP award, since the PIP DL activities (for which points are scored) are essentially daytime activities.
If an applicant only experiences seizures at night, then the risk of harm when performing PIP activities such as cooking, bathing, following a journey doesn't really apply.
What their form probably needs to explain is the impact on dressing, washing, breakfasting the morning after a seizure, and the extent of the help (and frequency) needed. Whether it takes twice as long, whether the applicant is left fatigued afterwards, etc.

 Arthritis and M.E may cause difficulties with preparing a meal / getting in and out of a bath / safely getting on and off the toilet / dressing. If so then this needs to be fully described on the PIP form and examples given (particularly in regard to the PIP concept of reliability).

 Whether the depression is relevant to a PIP award, may depend on the medication / treatment. Assessors tend not to give points unless the depression is severe enough to require(d) medical intervention.  
 If the OP is getting help from their GP / medical professional then their PIP form would address the need for being prompted for many PIP activities (in combination with the impact of fatigue). Does fatigue and depression lead to self neglect?
Also how does fatigue, pain, and depression impact on the PIP engaging socially activity?  Is it causing the OP to become reclusive? Is anxiety or poor memory an issue when engaging face to face?      

cozzie

Thank you all so so much for your insightful replies 🥰, I have felt so dismissed throughout this whole process and esp after today, I feel much less disregarded and upset now than when I left the courts.

Swallowing my pride and asking for help from those with more experience is obviously the way to go, it really shouldn't be that way though. I believe you're right too, in that I haven't been able to express myself in the manner that the assessors would prefer/better understand. That's prob because I choose to try and make light of my health nowadays, previously, overthinking and being negative about it caused me to become so depressed that I reached a point where I had to radically rethink my whole mindset else I would've done something stupid just to end the cycle of exhaustion, pain and self deprecation. 💀

""my home and household chores are normally neglected because of this kind of balance I've managed to achieve.".
   This is not what PIP is about, it looks at your personal care needs not household chores."
I understand completely, but the extra help from affording a cleaner coming in occasionally to help wouldn't have hurt.

Re: today's hearing.  I did try to concentrate on how my health was when assessed last Oct but my health was better then, not great, but better so it wasn't the easiest of tasks discerning 'now' from then.

I do still think it considerably unfair that as I've had to wait over 10months for a Tribunal I cannot request any new application be backdated, esp considering the seizures and overall poopy health situ declined very shortly after that assessment. I can't help but consider the exhauation, injuries and broken bones I could've prevented with safety features and aids etc had I been able to reapply sooner and afford them instead of struggling with trying to grab extra shifts here n there just to be able to live hand to mouth, causing myself more pain while making myself more exhausted, thus vulnerable to the seizures occurring etc etc ad infinitum.

Anyway, I digress.  Thank you all again, your input and suggestions have been invaluable and will be taken on board. xxxxx

And Muttley ... A Doctor threatening to punch you 😲 WOW!

Alice_Holt

"Swallowing my pride and asking for help from those with more experience is obviously the way to go, it really shouldn't be that way though. I believe you're right too, in that I haven't been able to express myself in the manner that the assessors would prefer/better understand. That's prob because I choose to try and make light of my health nowadays, previously, overthinking and being negative about it caused me to become so depressed that I reached a point where I had to radically rethink my whole mindset else I would've done something stupid just to end the cycle of exhaustion, pain and self deprecation"

   That, IMO, is another advantage of having a third party who knows their way around the PIP form and the PIP scoring system, help complete the form with you.
   
   Disability forms can be really difficult to complete for some people, because you have to focus on the stuff you can't do. Many people have established daily work rounds / adaptions and sensibly focus on positives. Completing the form may require upending that attitude / train of thought, and can be very upsetting.

   Having someone help write the form, whose focus is on the PIP points system / PIP aids required /  PIP reliability issues, and can accurately write a form which explains how your health conditions affect the PIP activities and descriptors - setting out for the DWP decision maker why points (and an award) should be given  -  may help, as it changes the emphasis (slightly) away from the disability itself onto how (and why) a PIP award should be possible. It becomes a joint effort concentrating more on the points (and the peculiarities of the PIP system), not solely on the health condition. 
   

poppy12345

cozzie said:

I do still think it considerably unfair that as I've had to wait over 10months for a Tribunal I cannot request any new application be backdated, esp considering the seizures and overall poopy health situ declined very shortly after that assessment.

That's because your claim was refused so there's nothing to backdate.

Charles_Foxtrot

cozzie said:.

During the hearing my son (who has been my carer/support) was told not to interject or speak until the end which completely took him aback and he spent the remainder of the time trying not to cry, and I was told that they would only be assessing me based upon my health when I was originally assessed, which was last October (applied last June so have been battling with them for 14months now), even though I provided them with further evidence which shows how my health has continue to decline since then. Results - my award was raised from 0 to 7 points.

Q - do I have a case for an Upper Tribunal hearing given that my witness/support was not allowed to speak at MY hearing when he needed to correct what I had said or underplayed (e.g. how can I describe what happens when I have a seizure, I'm not conscious!), or, do I reapply AND can I ask that this application be backdated to last October because the interim period hasn't been taken into account?

Was your son told to not speak at ALL until the very end? I am guessing that judges run these tribunals differently. We had a successful outcome a month ago. The judge told me, as the carer/PA, to not interject when my partner was speaking, but to wait until they were finished and then I could add my comments and clarifications, point by point. In other words, I did not have to wait to the very end to say anything, I was able to contribute throughout the discussion. They just made it clear to allow my partner answer everything fully and finish before I said anything. Their explanation, which makes sense, was that if both of us were talking over each other it would make the hearing and note taking confusing. 

Yes, everything in the tribunal had to do with the initial application, you can’t add on things and deterioration after the fact. The DWP wrote in one of their letters when we were bouncing evidence / statements back and forth that our appeal should be dismissed because of brining up something after the date. Which wasn’t the case, as the paper trail proved an issue we were bringing up was mentioned in the assessor report.

Alice_Holt

Yes, a carer / partner interrupting when the appellant is answering a question put by a tribunal panel will cause difficulties.
It is best practice to wait till the answer has been given, and then ask permission of the tribunal judge to speak in order to add / clarify points. 

I recall one hearing when a DWP presenting officer decided to (incorrectly) dispute the meaning of one of the WCA activities with the tribunal judge. 
I was slightly surprised that a  DWP presenting officer didn't understand the WCA criteria, and even more surprised when he tried to argue with the tribunal judge.