Dual rate tariffs, EV rates vs everyone else

Colinton

Hi,

New forum member here.  Have done some searching on here and on the web in general but haven't found any answers.

We recently added a 10kWH storage battery to our house to capture excess output from a 4kW solar array (installed under FiT).  Since May we've been 95% self-sufficient, which is even better that I'd hoped, but can't see things going so well through the winter and our fixed rate deal is just about to end, so I've been looking at dual rate / split rate tariffs to see if there's anything to be gained by night-charging from the grid.  Schemes that involve export payments (eg Octopus Flux) aren't useful as signing up to one would mean renouncing the last 12 years of my FiT deal, which doesn't look smart at this point.

I note that there are some cracking deals available to EV owners (7.5 or 9.5 p/kWH night rates currently), which are (it seems) absolutely not available to non-EV owners.  Why not?  Is there some government / legislative backing for this, or is it "bulk-buying discount" or plain old discrimination?  Best night rate for anyone else seems to be around 17p/kWH, which I'm not sure is enough to tempt me into smart meter land when I can get a single rate of 27p

Thoughts

TIA

Nick.

CSI_Yorkshire

Its not discrimination because "not owning an EV" is not a protected characteristic.

Companies are free to put restrictions on their tariff offerings.

[Deleted User]

as signing up to one would mean renouncing the last 12 years of my FiT deal, which doesn't look smart at this point.

You have got this wrong. To sign up to Flux (that is, SEG payments) the only thing that you have to give up is your deemed exports NOT your FIT generation payments. You can reverse back to deemed exports after 12 months if the change doesnt work out for you.

Clearly, the process is easier if Octopus is your FIT payer.

Colinton

Ah, that's interesting.  Hadn't twigged it was the export component only.  That alters the calculation!  Thanks!

Spoonie_Turtle

CSI_Yorkshire said:

Its not discrimination because "not owning an EV" is not a protected characteristic.

Companies are free to put restrictions on their tariff offerings.

I've seen this idea a couple of times recently.  A wider definition of discrimination is treating a person or group of people (or multiples of those) less favourably than others.  It's only illegal if it's on the basis of protected characteristics, under the Equality Act 2010.

So technically, yes non-EV owners could be seen to be discriminated against compared with EV owners in this case, but it's certainly not illegal and it's debatable whether it's even unfair (which is usually the underlying accusation of the word). 

As you quite rightly say, companies are free to put any terms and conditions on the tariffs they offer, as long as they don't discriminate against or unfairly disadvantage people with protected characteristics.

CSI_Yorkshire

Spoonie_Turtle said:

CSI_Yorkshire said:

Its not discrimination because "not owning an EV" is not a protected characteristic.

Companies are free to put restrictions on their tariff offerings.

I've seen this idea a couple of times recently.  A wider definition of discrimination is treating a person or group of people (or multiples of those) less favourably than others.  It's only illegal if it's on the basis of protected characteristics, under the Equality Act 2010.

So technically, yes non-EV owners could be seen to be discriminated against compared with EV owners in this case, but it's certainly not illegal and it's debatable whether it's even unfair (which is usually the underlying accusation of the word). 

As you quite rightly say, companies are free to put any terms and conditions on the tariffs they offer, as long as they don't discriminate against or unfairly disadvantage people with protected characteristics.

You're right of course, discrimination in the literal sense simply means noticing a difference or making a choice.

Also as you say, that is not the definition that most people using the word here have in mind.

Colinton

Ah, my mistake.  Using the dread word, "discrimation" which of course has a legal definition.

So, it is not discrimination in the legal sense, but could seem a little unfair (!) to someone who does not own (or have any plans to own) the correct electric transport appliance.  I can however, still help even out loads on the grid by buying power in the small hours and taking far less or even none during peak load times.

I'm mainly wondering what the justification is presumed to be for such a large disparity between rates.

CSI_Yorkshire

It seems unfair that you can't have an EV tariff if you don't have an EV?

Is it also unfair that you can't have a smart-meter-only tariff if you don't have a smart meter?  Or that you don't get clubcard discounts if you don't have a clubcard?

The justification is that the company chooses to offer that rate with that condition.  No other justification is required.  It might be that they want to attract that segment of the market, it might be that they have agreed a good purchase contract for electricity in certain hours that they think EVs are the best market for, it might be that they like the green credentials of having an EV tariff to use for PR, it could be that an executive thought it would be funny.

Scot_39

Suspect at least in part - it's simply time of use and time of year based averaging of costs.

Most people are used to having one price - for a period - as a result of Ofgem caps - but the reality is far more variable - and can and regularly does change every 1/2 hour on a daily basis - increasingly with windy or still - and on a seasonal demand basis.

Take a shifty at actual daily price fluctuations - as reflected in agile electricity tariff (which uses a mix of fixed cost and a multiplier on grid auction /kWh pricing) for instance - see this user's site that tracks Octopus rates - as an example

https://energy-stats.uk/

or

https://energy-stats.uk/octopus-agile-east-midlands/

for a preselected set of graphs.

And suppliers can model / or try to - to predict that - or just guess - a class of users likely usage - like EV owners - to set rates accordingly.

But as an EV driver is more likely to use power year round - summer normally cheaper than winter - and an off-peak time slot price - just encourages them to use it - when wholesale rates are traditionally lowest too (even negative many days in summer - as to whether that will be true when 10-20M BEV's are on the road - who knows).

You are unlikely to need to do so in summer - as can be charging for free from solar.  So your mix from the supplier - will look completely different.

Not that all EV users will be the same - some will use a lot - some will use a little - depending on car use.  It's just a dividing distinction.

There are some who will benefit from EV tariffs, there are others - e.g. all electric heating - who may need to stay E7 - or other RMI tariffs - even if buy an EV - as will be cheaper overall. 

There is no one solution for everyone.

And if a supplier says you need an EV - that's just a condition - on an optional contract they offer.

They don't have to design one for everyone.

rp1974

Essentially OP,you can't get what you want,how you want,so that's therefore discriminatory and unfair,due to not meeting the sign up criteria stated,that's an interesting viewpoint.
It seems,that you've an aversion to smart meters for whatever reason,your choice of course,for now but moving forward are you intending to disadvantage yourself by not having one and the availability of tariffs that require them?.
Not pro,or anti smart meters myself,despite having them recently fitted,through choice due to purchasing an EV and maybe moving to another tariff/supplier that requires smart meters,wouldn't have even crossed my mind to claim "unfair" if I had'nt.

lohr500

I don't know if it has been asked before or has ever been challenged, but what is the definition of an EV?

I know some EV tariffs require smart charging points, but others don't and simply state that you have to own or lease an EV.

Say I bought one of those cheap electric scooters used by teenagers that seem to be blighting many of our pavements. Would that be considered an EV? On several police documentary TV shows, they have stopped folk riding them on the road and charged them with road traffic offences.

Has anyone seen a specific clause in an EV tariff T&Cs stating what constitutes an EV?

I guess it could involve being able to provide a copy of a V5 or lease agreement, but who knows!