How do I prove that I am the legal representative?

Claude_and_Eustace

I am the next of kin for my late husband, although we were not living together at the time of his death.  I have been acting as the legal representative as I am the only one that most institutions would deal with and I am first in line to be able to do this.  We have teenage children together, and I feel that I need to wrap this up for them, as my final duty I suppose.

He died intestate and with large debts of approximately £45k.  His only assets are a car which is not worth much, and which his girlfriend has since signed over to herself, and "some" shares with his company which are based in the USA.  It is the shares that are causing the problems, it has taken them 4 months to look over paperwork to see if I need court documentation to prove I have authority to act.  They have now asked for proof that I am the heir to his estate - I would be but I doubt that there will be anything left to pay out, it will just be to pay off his debts.  They have asked for " additional documentation that would identify who the heirs would be for John's estate, such as yourself, or any court document showing successors or personal representatives"  or "a copy of the relevant UK law that shows that you have referred to that dictates you as the legal representative as you were next of kin".  Can anyone guide me of anything I can give to prove this?  Not surprisingly they are being sticklers but the gaps between US and UK law are provong difficult, and I don't really want the expense in terms of money or time to have to gain court documents, as it will only come out of my own pocket.

user1977

Taking a step back here, if his estate is insolvent then is there any reason for you to get involved with the shares? If you start acting as executor then you're going to have to ingather anything that he had (which will include the car...) and account to his creditors, for no personal reward. If a creditor wants to step in and do the work instead, they can.

Claude_and_Eustace

user1977 said:

Taking a step back here, if his estate is insolvent then is there any reason for you to get involved with the shares? If you start acting as executor then you're going to have to ingather anything that he had (which will include the car...) and account to his creditors, for no personal reward. If a creditor wants to step in and do the work instead, they can.

Thank you for replying.  I have been having this argument with myself, I can't really explain but I feel I have a moral duty on behalf of my children.  I just wouldn't feel right not tying everything up properly.  My main reasons are that part of the debt is owing to my children, my late husband's sister is not in a position to complete the financial side of this but she (and obviously myself) don't trust the girlfriend to act fairly after signing the car over to herself, if there is any residue it would come to me anyway (i don't think that there will be but I have no idea what shares he holds, and the girlfriend will not pass on any paperwork to help), I have recieved the insurance payout for the mortgage and I guess i feel a bit guilty, that I have receieved money and I should "earn" it somehow.  I know it is more of a "heart" decision to take on this role, but it is the last bit of the puzzle, as he died over 6 months ago.

Keep_pedalling

user1977 said:

Taking a step back here, if his estate is insolvent then is there any reason for you to get involved with the shares? If you start acting as executor then you're going to have to ingather anything that he had (which will include the car...) and account to his creditors, for no personal reward. If a creditor wants to step in and do the work instead, they can.

It would be very difficult to prove that he was the sole owner of the car, he may have been the registered keeper but that means nothing as far as ownership is concerned so it would be easy to claim it was owned jointly but impossible to disprove that.

Savvy_Sue

If the insurance payment passed outside the estate, then I don't think you need to feel you've earned it. I am presuming, mind you, that this is for the property you now own, rather than one he shared with his girlfriend. 

another slightly sideways way of approaching this: I'm guessing you don't know how many shares he owned, and you may not even know which companies they are for, BUT you might be able to guesstimate whether this is likely to be worth pursuing or not. I am a numpty in this area, so I may be told this is a load of nonsense, but suppose he worked for "Big US Co 'R' Us", and you find their shares are worth $10 each. Could you, from that, work out roughly how many shares he'd need to own to exceed his debts? 

TBagpuss

You could send them this link https://www.gov.uk/inherits-someone-dies-without-will
The relvent statutory law is in s46 of the Administration of Estates Act 1925 (as amended by the Intestates Estates Act 1952) 

Malthusian

Claude_and_Eustace said:

Thank you for replying.  I have been having this argument with myself, I can't really explain but I feel I have a moral duty on behalf of my children.  I just wouldn't feel right not tying everything up properly. 

The morally correct way to tie up an insolvent estate is "Dear Creditor, Mr X has died, the estate is insolvent and nobody is administering it. Yours sincerely etc."
Any moral duty you have is to your teenage children, which means not spending time on working unpaid for your husbands' creditors that you could be spending with your children.

nom_de_plume

Claude_and_Eustace said: 

My main reasons are that part of the debt is owing to my children.

Who are the other debtors and would they take precedence over the debt owed to your children? If they are institutions such as HMRC or banks they could do so the question then is, after settling those debts, would anything be left for the children?

MEM62

Claude_and_Eustace said:

I am the next of kin for my late husband

A title that carries no legal weight, nor affords you any rights or obligations.    

Claude_and_Eustace said:

His only assets are a car which is not worth much, and which his girlfriend has since signed over to herself, and "some" shares with his company which are based in the USA.  

Claude_and_Eustace said:

user1977 said:

Taking a step back here, if his estate is insolvent then is there any reason for you to get involved with the shares? If you start acting as executor then you're going to have to ingather anything that he had (which will include the car...) and account to his creditors, for no personal reward. If a creditor wants to step in and do the work instead, they can.

I have recieved the insurance payout for the mortgage 

If he had no assets then what was the mortgage for?  

If he died in debt and intestate do not get involved.  You will only create issues and maybe even liabilities for yourself.  Notwithstanding my question above, if all he had were debts then I cannot see what you are hoping to achieve for your children.  There is no money to be recovered.        

Malthusian

Claude_and_Eustace said:

Thank you for replying.  I have been having this argument with myself, I can't really explain but I feel I have a moral duty on behalf of my children.  I just wouldn't feel right not tying everything up properly.  My main reasons are that part of the debt is owing to my children

I missed this bit when I replied, but I don't understand how your husband could have managed to borrow significant sums of money from teenage children. (I can think of a few scenarios, they're just very unusual.)
Unless they are likely to receive large sums, and none of the other creditors want to adminster, I would still be inclined to not get involved with administering the estate. If any of his professional creditors take on the adminsitration, they would still have to ensure the children are repaid in due proportion to their debts. 

Marcon

Claude_and_Eustace said:

I am the next of kin for my late husband, although we were not living together at the time of his death.  I have been acting as the legal representative as I am the only one that most institutions would deal with and I am first in line to be able to do this.  We have teenage children together, and I feel that I need to wrap this up for them, as my final duty I suppose.

He died intestate and with large debts of approximately £45k.  His only assets are a car which is not worth much, and which his girlfriend has since signed over to herself, and "some" shares with his company which are based in the USA.  It is the shares that are causing the problems, it has taken them 4 months to look over paperwork to see if I need court documentation to prove I have authority to act.  They have now asked for proof that I am the heir to his estate - I would be but I doubt that there will be anything left to pay out, it will just be to pay off his debts.  They have asked for " additional documentation that would identify who the heirs would be for John's estate, such as yourself, or any court document showing successors or personal representatives"  or "a copy of the relevant UK law that shows that you have referred to that dictates you as the legal representative as you were next of kin".  Can anyone guide me of anything I can give to prove this?  Not surprisingly they are being sticklers but the gaps between US and UK law are provong difficult, and I don't really want the expense in terms of money or time to have to gain court documents, as it will only come out of my own pocket.

Claude_and_Eustace said:

user1977 said:

Taking a step back here, if his estate is insolvent then is there any reason for you to get involved with the shares? If you start acting as executor then you're going to have to ingather anything that he had (which will include the car...) and account to his creditors, for no personal reward. If a creditor wants to step in and do the work instead, they can.

Thank you for replying.  I have been having this argument with myself, I can't really explain but I feel I have a moral duty on behalf of my children.  I just wouldn't feel right not tying everything up properly.  My main reasons are that part of the debt is owing to my children, my late husband's sister is not in a position to complete the financial side of this but she (and obviously myself) don't trust the girlfriend to act fairly after signing the car over to herself, if there is any residue it would come to me anyway (i don't think that there will be but I have no idea what shares he holds, and the girlfriend will not pass on any paperwork to help), I have recieved the insurance payout for the mortgage and I guess i feel a bit guilty, that I have receieved money and I should "earn" it somehow.  I know it is more of a "heart" decision to take on this role, but it is the last bit of the puzzle, as he died over 6 months ago.

You certainly aren't alone in how you feel - but the reality is that if you try to administer an insolvent estate, you are lining yourself up for personal liability if any creditors feel you've not done things correctly. That isn't going to help your children if their mother has to pay out (potentially) large sums to settle debts which aren't hers to pay.

Where an estate is insolvent, there is no route to 'tying everything up properly'.