How can I find and compare Friendly Society performance?

jouef

Looking into friendly society investment bonds for a lump sum. Complete absence of information on what they actually pay out in practice. Where can I find and compare their historic rates of return?

Albermarle

The returns from friendly societies tend to be poor with high charges.
You will almost certainly be better off investing elsewhere.

jouef

Albermarle said:

The returns from friendly societies tend to be poor with high charges.

How poor? 0.01% worse than average? 500% worse? Just looking for some data to work with. Where are the figures your comment is based on?

wmb194

jouef said:

Albermarle said:

The returns from friendly societies tend to be poor with high charges.

How poor? 0.01% worse than average? 500% worse? Just looking for some data to work with. Where are the figures your comment is based on?

Yes, they do make it hard, don't they? I wonder why?... The insurance element to these will complicate things.

Looking at the Foresters Friendly website it says it invests in a couple POIS funds - 'Flexible Growth' and 'Savings' - and POIS' website has a few more clues but it's still short on data. The one thing it does state is that the annual fees are c.2%, so not cheap, and they're minuscule in size with £12m and £23m AuM respectively. 

https://www.pois.co.uk/about-us/about-our-funds/

https://www.forestersfriendlysociety.co.uk/saving-for-you/savings-and-investment-plan/

dunstonh

Looking into friendly society investment bonds for a lump sum.

That is something you don't see every day!

Where can I find and compare their historic rates of return?

In general, you don't.  You do not invest in Friendly society plans on the basis of performance.   Indeed, you don't invest in them at all if you know what you are doing.

Because of the limitation on the amounts that can be invested, FS plans do not get the cross subsidy from higher-value investors.   Plus, many of FS's run obsolete software that is expensive and still offer plan styles that were expensive and out-of-date in 1995. Let alone 2023.

The FS Key features document/T&C document tend to show the charges as a reduction in yield.    For example, a 1.1% reduction in yield equates to 1% AMC.   Usually, FS plans are in the 2%+ range,   

jimjames

jouef said:

Albermarle said:

The returns from friendly societies tend to be poor with high charges.

How poor? 0.01% worse than average? 500% worse? Just looking for some data to work with. Where are the figures your comment is based on?

Turning the question round, what reason are you looking to invest in a friendly society bond rather than a mainstream fund via S&S ISA or platform account?

jouef

dunstonh said:

The FS Key features document/T&C document tend to show the charges as a reduction in yield.    For example, a 1.1% reduction in yield equates to 1% AMC.   Usually, FS plans are in the 2%+ range,   

Again, what level of yield? I have one manager who takes 2% from extremely good returns, which overall beats lower charges elsewhere. Many of the comments I’ve read online seem based on the £25/month plans, not the product I’m looking at.

Among my best-performing investments ever are some friendly society insurance ISAs. They have out-performed other well-known funds and platforms I have alongside them.

I would like be able to compare recent FS investment bond payout levels.

jouef

jimjames said:

Turning the question round, what reason are you looking to invest in a friendly society bond rather than a mainstream fund via S&S ISA or platform account?

I need to park a lump sum without it having any bearing on my tax return. I am already maxed out on ISAs. I prefer to use mutual rather than shareholder entities. I have had insurance ISAs, a pension and an endowment with friendly societies which have performed extremely well in the past.

dunstonh

Again, what level of yield? I have one manager who takes 2% from extremely good returns, which overall beats lower charges elsewhere.

2% is high by today's standards.   DIY investments all in tend to be around 0.35-0.50% nowadays.   Adviser investments tend to be around 0.80% upwards.

Many of the comments I’ve read online seem based on the £25/month plans, not the product I’m looking at.

I am not seeing that in this thread.    The single premium versions tend to use the same investments and life funds structure.

Among my best-performing investments ever are some friendly society insurance ISAs. They have out-performed other well-known funds and platforms I have alongside them.

in my experience, they tend to be amongst the worst.  However, considering the comments you made in the following post, I suspect you have limited yourself to obsolete and old fashioned investments and lack the broader whole of market knowledge.     That is not a criticism but just a reflection that are looking at similar looking goldfish in a goldfish bowl and not looking at all the fish in the sea.

artyboy

I have given the odd passing thought to FS plans over the past few years - small as it may be, the extra £25/month tax free allowance that they offer could potentially be useful to higher/additional rate tax payers that have no remaining savings allowance. 

If there was a FS that offered more transparency over fees and investments, then even if fees were higher, it could be worthwhile. But I've not spotted one yet. Actually wondering if they are missing a gap in the market...

jimjames

artyboy said:

I have given the odd passing thought to FS plans over the past few years - small as it may be, the extra £25/month tax free allowance that they offer could potentially be useful to higher/additional rate tax payers that have no remaining savings allowance. 

Problem I can see for that is that if you're a higher or additional rate taxpayer that has used all your ISA (£20k) and pension allowance (up to £60k) then £25 is neither here nor there. Tax free is also irrelevant if you'd get a higher return and pay tax.

jouef said:

Looking into friendly society investment bonds for a lump sum. Complete absence of information on what they actually pay out in practice. Where can I find and compare their historic rates of return?

Back to the original question. I suspect the only place that would have that information is on the provider's website and if they don't have it then it may not be available at all.