Do I have any rights ?

smallzoo2

I'll be brief. We bought a 2012 BMW X1 from an independent dealer for £9495. My wife and daughter drove the car for a quick test drive. All seemed fine.

The following day I drove it at home and I noticed a whine. I took it to a local BMW specialist and he said it was the differential so to hand the car back. I emailed them with all the details and they were nice and professional in the reply but said as the car had not broken down they are under no obligation to return the money as they are offering to repair it if I was to bring it in. They also said it was too much hassle for them as there was another owner on the V5. They said it was cheap to fix as they knew about the problem on Mini's.

I asked why has they sold me the car with the whine and they said it been transported to them so they wouldnt have noticed it. We arranged to send the car back but we also notice the air con wasnt working and they have now said they will fix that too.

One final point which probably isnt relevant is that my wife is finding it hard to driving as the steering is too heavy for her weak wrists. I guess that is definitely our problem

Are they totally correct to stand their ground and repair it or do we have any ground in law to just reject it. We paid by debit card

Thanks

Ditzy_Mitzy

How long ago did you buy the car?  If it was more than 30 days ago then yes, the dealer is correct.  They can even refuse to accept short-term rejection claims within 30 days if the circumstances are right.  Both matters are fairly minor in nature; would you be happy to keep the car assuming they were fully fixed?  

Re the steering: have you put it in 'Comfort' mode?  The BMW X1 should have various settings for power assistance.  

smallzoo2

It was less than 7 days ago

The BMW specialist said 2012 X1 has hydraulic pas which because it's a 4x4 is a bit heavy 

smallzoo2

I saw this on a website . Is the differential a significant fault ?

Alderbank

Is the differential a significant fault ?

No. 'the differential' is just the name of a component, like the steering wheel or the battery. What is actually wrong with the diff?

Significance of a fault depends on the age and condition of the vehicle. Expectations of an older vehicle are lower so with a 20 year old car a fault is only considered significant if it makes the vehicle undriveable or unsafe to be on the road.
For a new car, if you ordered a blue car and you received a red one, or even the wrong shade of blue, would be a significant fault.

This is a 10year old car and I think you might be hard pushed to claim either air con or a whine is significant. They have said they will fix both issues so I would just let them do so.

sheramber

Did your wife not notice the steering was too heavy when she did the test drive?

HillStreetBlues

You have been told of rubbish that it needs to have broken down.
I can't see how that a having to fix/ replace a differential isn't a major fault.
 You have taken the car to an "expert"  and confirmed the fault.
As within 30 days I would be asking for a full refund, having another person on the V5 is their problem, and should not be used as an excuse to dodge your rights.

Ditzy_Mitzy

HillStreetBlues said:

You have been told of rubbish that it needs to have broken down.
I can't see how that a having to fix/ replace a differential isn't a major fault.
 You have taken the car to an "expert"  and confirmed the fault.
As within 30 days I would be asking for a full refund, having another person on the V5 is their problem, and should not be used as an excuse to dodge your rights.

I'm not sure that differential whine would be considered a major fault.  'Major' implies something that is either impossible or uneconomic to rectify, meaning the customer cannot be put in the position he should be.  The example of the paint being the wrong colour would fall into that category.  With the differential, however, the garage simply need remove it from the rear axle assembly and then replace it wholesale or repair/recondition the relevant bearings and bushings.  The car can be returned to the customer in the condition agreed at point of sale, i.e. working and without a whining diff.  

Apparently the 4x4 X1s do indeed have conventional hydraulic power steering, which is described elsewhere as 'heavy'.  Interesting piece of cost cutting on their part, given the presence of variable assistance on much humbler machinery of the time.  

HillStreetBlues

Ditzy_Mitzy said:

I'm not sure that differential whine would be considered a major fault.  'Major' implies something that is either impossible or uneconomic to rectify, meaning the customer cannot be put in the position he should be.  The example of the paint being the wrong colour would fall into that category.  With the differential, however, the garage simply need remove it from the rear axle assembly and then replace it wholesale or repair/recondition the relevant bearings and bushings.  The car can be returned to the customer in the condition agreed at point of sale, i.e. working and without a whining diff.  

Apparently the 4x4 X1s do indeed have conventional hydraulic power steering, which is described elsewhere as 'heavy'.  Interesting piece of cost cutting on their part, given the presence of variable assistance on much humbler machinery of the time.  

A minor fault might be a windscreen wiper replacement, a major one that needs an "expert"  to do the work.
I believe the Act only states "faulty"   not even minor / major or significant.
It seems as the garage is willing to fix there diff, there is a fault that was inherent when purchased.
If out of the 30 days, the buyer would have to let the retailer fix the issue, but under 30 days the buyer doesn't have too.  

smallzoo2

Thank everyone.. this is what they actually said to me. The are putting me under so much pressure to repair the car. The wife is suffering anxiety attacks which is perfect for them as she is really worried it might go to court and we would lose. We even offered to exchange the car for one of their cheaper cars.

"Hello, How has it caused you any issues ?, Has the car broke down ?, no it hasn’t, there is a minor whine which we have said we will sort it no problem at all, You have agreed to have the car repaired, You have arranged with us to drop the car off which has now caused us problems as we have had our mechanic in today to look at the vehicle when he doesn’t work on a weekend. 

It’s sounds like to us that you just do not want the car and are trying to find reasons to return it and swap it for a cheaper car ? which automatically rings alarm bells in out heads? 

Why would you want to exchange a lovely car like that automatic X1 which are very easy to drive, i know this personally has my girlfriend has one and they are definitely not hard to drive,  for an 186,000 miles audi estate when you want something reliable for your mrs and daughter, Or even an old Hyundai santa fe which is a very big car and will 100% be a lot harder to drive than the X1.

Also im pretty positive 2 manual vehicles will be a lot  harder to drive than a automatic X1.

There is obviously a different reason you want to downgrade to a cheaper car.

Unfortunately we will not be exchanging the vehicle as we are not argos and have a business to run.

The car will be inspected and if there is a minor whine it will be repaired and handed back to you.

I have already spoken to our legal department who are authorised by trading standards and we are well within our rights."

RefluentBeans

smallzoo2 said:

Thank everyone.. this is what they actually said to me. The are putting me under so much pressure to repair the car. The wife is suffering anxiety attacks which is perfect for them as she is really worried it might go to court and we would lose. We even offered to exchange the car for one of their cheaper cars.

"Hello, How has it caused you any issues ?, Has the car broke down ?, no it hasn’t, there is a minor whine which we have said we will sort it no problem at all, You have agreed to have the car repaired, You have arranged with us to drop the car off which has now caused us problems as we have had our mechanic in today to look at the vehicle when he doesn’t work on a weekend. 

It’s sounds like to us that you just do not want the car and are trying to find reasons to return it and swap it for a cheaper car ? which automatically rings alarm bells in out heads? 

Why would you want to exchange a lovely car like that automatic X1 which are very easy to drive, i know this personally has my girlfriend has one and they are definitely not hard to drive,  for an 186,000 miles audi estate when you want something reliable for your mrs and daughter, Or even an old Hyundai santa fe which is a very big car and will 100% be a lot harder to drive than the X1.

Also im pretty positive 2 manual vehicles will be a lot  harder to drive than a automatic X1.

There is obviously a different reason you want to downgrade to a cheaper car.

Unfortunately we will not be exchanging the vehicle as we are not argos and have a business to run.

The car will be inspected and if there is a minor whine it will be repaired and handed back to you.

I have already spoken to our legal department who are authorised by trading standards and we are well within our rights."

Is that what they actually said to you? If that’s the case then I would get the whole car checked immediately. Try and identify anything that is wrong with the car, especially things that may flag on an MOT as warnings. I wouldn’t trust that dealer as far as I can throw them and I doubt they’ll ‘find’ anything wrong with the car as they were ‘unable to reproduce the noise’. 

I’m not sure where this idea of significant fault came from. Are motorising purchases not considered under the CRA as products? Surely any fault is allowance for the short term right to reject.

It’s only after 30 days they can insist on repair. Their legal department aren’t ‘authorised by trading standards’ - they operate under them (same as any company or lawyer operating under the laws - doesn’t mean you’re authorised by the law). 

The whole letter seems a bit of a red flag to me - the ‘it’s such a good car, why change it’ is hard selling. Formally, and under no shadow of a doubt, tell them that you want a refund under the short term right to reject. If they don’t find a ‘fault’ when they look at the car, produce either the check by an independent engineer (the one above) and the BMW dealership. 

It sounds like you’re going to be in for a battle - so good luck. If you can get the car repaired (and the full check to identify other ‘faults’ which the dealership should repair) then it may be worth just accepting it - if you want the car. If there’s major faults (which I would consider anything that is checked in an MOT, even if just a warning) then tell them there are major faults with the car, and they are obligated to refund you under your right to reject within 30 days.