SABA TRELISKE HOSPITAL PARKING...NOT!

DC17

Here is a funny one!

Stopped outside the car park at Treliske on the sidewalk/grass.

To my surprise, I get a PCN on the windshield. 

This is an ANPR car park. I never entered, so no legal contract was entered in parking on the lawn that would consist of a breach. Right?

This was on the 8th of June, and the notice to the keeper was sent on the 13th of July. I believe it's out of date, right?

Here are some edited photos for assessing the situation...maybe have a laugh also.

PCN
SABA Sign. What might have been a sign at some point?

A car is parked on the grass and on the sidewalk by the main road.


Any thoughts would be appreciated.

This is definitely an attempt at an unlawful charge. Also, the DVLA continues to give out details without properly enquiring into the cases. 

Thanks in advance for any help. 

Umkomaas

This was on the 8th of June, and the notice to the keeper was sent on the 13th of July. I believe it's out of date, right?

Nope. With a windscreen ticket, they have between 28 and 56 days from the date of the parking event to issue the NtK. But let's see what the NtK says (front and back) to see if it is PoFA compliant (many SABA ones aren't) in order for them to hold the keeper liable. Please redact any personal identifiers, including the VRM of your car. Please leave all dates showing. 

I guess the spot where the car was parked was on Penventinnie Lane?  You need to check with the local authority if this is a public highway maintained by them, or a private road owned by the hospital trust. 

DC17

Nope. With a windscreen ticket, they have between 28 and 56 days from the date of the parking event to issue the NtK. But let's see what the NtK says (front and back) to see if it is PoFA compliant (many SABA ones aren't) in order for them to hold the keeper liable. Please redact any personal identifiers, including the VRM of your car. Please leave all dates showing. 

Thanks. Did not know that.

I guess the spot where the car was parked was on Penventinnie Lane?  You need to check with the local authority if this is a public highway maintained by them, or a private road owned by the hospital trust. 

Independently of being private, there were no signs.
And I would assume not, as it's also an industrial road with private homes.


 I spotted the different date formats, which, if it was another date, would have been confusing...

Umkomaas

It's an attempt at a PoFA warning, not ideal, but I'm not sure that POPLA would find against them on that point. 

Independently of being private, there were no signs.

Signage is almost always the Achilles Heel for PPCs, so you need to get good photographic evidence of the lack of it along that stretch of grass verging - a single photo won't be enough in my opinion. Get a good number, make sure the date and time is embedded on each. 

And I would assume not, as it's also an industrial road with private homes.

You must check this out with the council, and get it in writing, because if (any of) your wheels are shown to be on the kerb, that kerb, I believe, forms part of the highway, is the responsibility of the council to enforce, SABA are in breach of the BPA Code of Practice in issuing you a ticket, and you need to complain to the DVLA and the BPA - misrepresentation of authority and obtaining your personal data without reasonable cause. 

Castle

The compulsory admin charge of £27 would mean that the NTD and NTK will differ.

Umkomaas

Castle said:

The compulsory admin charge of £27 would mean that the NTD and NTK will differ.

Good spot @Castle, meaning the NtK is not PoFA-compliant (but @DC17, you'll need to read up to understand that the NtK must mirror the NtD windscreen ticket), neither does it comply with the BPA Code of Practice at NtK stage - complaint to the BPA in due course. 

Coupon-mad

 I spotted the different date formats, which, if it was another date, would have been confusing...

Wow, how exactly does SABA reckon that the POFA allows them to charge the registered keeper £27 more than the full £60 parking charge that the driver is alleged to have agreed to?!

This is appalling profiteering from keepers who (in maybe half of cases we see) might not have been driving - the keeper might well be a company or fleet/lease firm - and often know nothing about the PCN.

Adding extra money is certainly not POFA-compliant at NTK stage following a windscreen PCN because Schedule 4 mandates that a NTK must 'repeat the information in the NTD' and that legislation also states that the maximum recoverable from the keeper is the sum that stood to be payable by the driver.

DC17

Signage is almost always the Achilles Heel for PPCs, so you need to get good photographic evidence of the lack of it along that stretch of grass verging - a single photo won't be enough in my opinion. Get a good number, make sure the date and time is embedded on each.

There are no signs along that road. Yes, I took photos of the street, even from across the street.

You must check this out with the council, and get it in writing, because if (any of) your wheels are shown to be on the kerb, that kerb, I believe, forms part of the highway, is the responsibility of the council to enforce, SABA are in breach of the BPA Code of Practice in issuing you a ticket, and you need to complain to the DVLA and the BPA - misrepresentation of authority and obtaining your personal data without reasonable cause. 

The reasonable cause, as I said, is that I didn't enter the car park. And it states this on the windscreen ticket.



Another thing that struck me as odd was the lack of a grace period. Even if I had entered and parked. And then found out about the requirement to not park in the "grass verges" (as stated on the sign inside the car park.) The seen and issued time is only 2 minutes. Anyone else agrees, or am I not seen it right?



"All parking within the car park/parking area is regulated by the contract conditions displayed at each site. By entering and remaining in the car park/parking area, you have agreed to these conditions and are contracted to Saba and to be legally bound by them. 

I never entered. So no agreement was made.

The compulsory admin charge of £27 would mean that the NTD and NTK will differ.

"If payment is not received within the payment period stated on this NoPC, this will result in action being taken to recover the full value of the NoPC, additional fees may be charged in the result of non-payment. Saba may pursue for the higher amount where Saba deems it appropriate to recover any additional losses sustained by them."

What losses are there? I didn't use the parking. No time of how long I was there due to no record of entering or leaving on the ANPR. Right??



I apologise for the various photos; I had to edit some to be legible. 

So, would the suggestion be to appeal, wait to go to court, or anything else I don't know about? 


Again Thanks for all the input so far. When reading these papers, it really makes all the difference with the insight you guys give.

Coupon-mad

I didn't use the parking. No time of how long I was there due to no record of entering or leaving on the ANPR. Right?

Right but wrong...

...if you say "I didn't use the parking" or "how long I was there" in your appeal, then you will bin the win.

B789

Have you tried Plan A yet? Complained to the landowner or their agent? If you were visting the hospital, although as you state, not in their car park or their land, have you complained to PALS? Have you written to your MP to complain?

Plan B is to appeal to the PPC. In this case, if the driver has not been identified, use the template appeal in the Newbies/FAQ thread/ You are appealing as the RK. Do not identify the driver. The PCN is not strictly PoFA compliant but also, as they have added a £27 admin fee, the NtK does not match the NtD and therefore is not PoFA compliant.

If/when they reject your appeal, you go to Plan C and appeal to POPLA where it should be successful as long as you don't get the tea boy making the assessment. Signage, PoFA, landowner authority etc., etc. will be your argument.

If all those plans fail, you are nit having much luck and you would then defend in Plan D where a judge would be the final arbiter as to whether you have a debt to SABA.

DC17

Right but wrong...

...if you say "I didn't use the parking" or "how long I was there" in your appeal, then you will bin the win.

How so? Because I'm identifying myself as the driver, or because that is not a valuable input to the appeal?
Thanks.