NCP fine and Trace Debt Recovery letter

Coupon-mad

Time to report them online to HMRC. Now please.  No delay. They were warned.

High time we made a start with this onslaught (to be clear, I am NOT accusing any company of VAT fraud but I'm fed up with the DRAs not answering the question and it is noticeable that neither APA clarifies in their Codes of Practice that the added £70 that the DLUHC called 'extortion' includes or doesn't include VAT):

https://www.gov.uk/report-tax-fraud

Tell HMRC that:

This report concerns VAT concerns involving the conduct of the legal and Debt Recovery firms operating as parasites clinging limpet-like to the 'rogue' private parking industry.

This report specifically concerns BW Legal because the attached evidence is about their failure to confirm whether consumers are being unlawfully hit with the VAT element of their added 'fees'.

This is not about parking charges (these cannot exceed £100).  It is all about the added £70 admin/DRA costs that the DLUHC called 'extorting money from motorists'.

These third party debt collectors include BW Legal,  DCB Ltd, DCB Legal, Gladstones Solicitors, Empira, TNC, CIS, Trace Debt Recovery, ZZPS, Debt Recovery Plus, QDR solicitors, CST Law, Elms Legal and others who are listed as members of the BPA and/or IPC Approved Operator or approved debt firms.

Because the concern is that they steadfastly refuse to answer questions about the VAT on their DRA fee, it is now widely suspected that some or all of the private parking industry specialist Debt Recovery firms (including legal firms) may be operating as follows.

Either:

(a) not paying HMRC the VAT element on the £60 or £70 per PCN 'admin fees' that they charge for 'debt recovery'. This amounts to £multi-millions p.a. due to parking cases now exceeding 12m DVLA look-ups per year.  Within weeks, £70 per PCN is added and aggressively demanded. 90% of those cases that result in court claims include multiple £70 'fees' that the parking operator clients have never paid and appear to be unjust enrichment of the DRAs;

or

(b) including VAT within the fixed £70 'fee' which they describe as "our costs". This has the object or effect of making the consumer pay the VAT, which HMRC has already stated is unlawful in cases of enforcement or debt recovery fees.

The service supplied by a debt collection agency is a single composite supply, the core of which is debt collection, which is specifically excluded from the finance exemption, and is thus taxable:

https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/vat-finance-manual/vatfin3255

I have complained and given BW Legal every chance to clarify what they are doing in terms of VAT on what they call "our costs" but they have swerved the questions (see attached emails).

This is long overdue HMRC investigation; please let me know if you require further information.

yours faithfully

your name

pixie_man

Coupon-mad said:

Time to report them online to HMRC. Now please.  No delay. They were warned.

High time we made a start with this onslaught (to be clear, I am NOT accusing any company of VAT fraud but I'm fed up with the DRAs not answering the question and it is noticeable that neither APA clarifies in their Codes of Practice that the added £70 that the DLUHC called 'extortion' includes or doesn't include VAT):

https://www.gov.uk/report-tax-fraud

Tell HMRC that:

This report concerns VAT concerns involving the conduct of the legal and Debt Recovery firms operating as parasites clinging limpet-like to the 'rogue' private parking industry.

This report specifically concerns BW Legal because the attached evidence is about their failure to confirm whether consumers are being unlawfully hit with the VAT element of their added 'fees'.

This is not about parking charges (these cannot exceed £100).  It is all about the added £70 admin/DRA costs that the DLUHC called 'extorting money from motorists'.

These third party debt collectors include BW Legal,  DCB Ltd, DCB Legal, Gladstones Solicitors, Empira, TNC, CIS, Trace Debt Recovery, ZZPS, Debt Recovery Plus, QDR solicitors, CST Law, Elms Legal and others who are listed as members of the BPA and/or IPC Approved Operator or approved debt firms.

Because the concern is that they steadfastly refuse to answer questions about the VAT on their DRA fee, it is now widely suspected that some or all of the private parking industry specialist Debt Recovery firms (including legal firms) may be operating as follows.

Either:

(a) not paying HMRC the VAT element on the £60 or £70 per PCN 'admin fees' that they charge for 'debt recovery'. This amounts to £multi-millions p.a. due to parking cases now exceeding 12m DVLA look-ups per year.  Within weeks, £70 per PCN is added and aggressively demanded. 90% of those cases that result in court claims include multiple £70 'fees' that the parking operator clients have never paid and appear to be unjust enrichment of the DRAs;

or

(b) including VAT within the fixed £70 'fee' which they describe as "our costs". This has the object or effect of making the consumer pay the VAT, which HMRC has already stated is unlawful in cases of enforcement or debt recovery fees.

The service supplied by a debt collection agency is a single composite supply, the core of which is debt collection, which is specifically excluded from the finance exemption, and is thus taxable:

https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/vat-finance-manual/vatfin3255

I have complained and given BW Legal every chance to clarify what they are doing in terms of VAT on what they call "our costs" but they have swerved the questions (see attached emails).

This is long overdue HMRC investigation; please let me know if you require further information.

yours faithfully

your name

Thanks. Should I reply to BW Legal too?  should I add that I reported them to HMRC (am doing it now)?

Coupon-mad

Nope, just go ahead.  They don't need to know who reported them.

pixie_man

Coupon-mad said:

Nope, just go ahead.  They don't need to know who reported them.

So no need to reply to BW Legal just wait/prepare for the court? 

Coupon-mad

Yes.

See the word count issue with HMRC.  Discussed by this person:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6479279/pcm-high-point-village-hayes-letter-from-shakespeare-martineau/p4

patient_dream

pixie_man said:

Coupon-mad said:

pixie_man said:

Coupon-mad said:

Please show a screenshot of the 'Statement of Account' (an actual screenshot not copied & pasted words).   Redact your data.

Funny bit is that they haven't attached any documents, account summary or anything. The text I shared is all that was in their response. I didnt set up account on their website, so I am not sure what account summary they are refering to.  

Reply and say:

Dear Sirs,

1.  The reply appears to have omitted the 'Statement of Account enclosed'.  Nothing was enclosed.   Kindly explain.

2.  Given that BW Legal have stated that the added £70 is "our costs" (as opposed to part of their client's claim) the keeper declines to pay because:

(a) only 'parking related charges owed to the creditor' are recoverable from a registered keeper - see Schedule 4 of the POFA 2012;

and

(b) BW Legal are not the creditor;

and

(c) BW Legal have not provided any service of any value, and in any event the contact was unsolicited, unwanted and at best it is a third party service provided for the parking firm.  They can and should pay for that, and (unless the parking firm is exempt) VAT applies to a debt recovery fee.

3. Given the above, is the £70 that you have described as "our costs" inclusive of the VAT element, or not?  Kindly break the £70 fee down.  Is the parking firm going to pay the VAT element of the DRA fee (adding VAT on top of the £70) or is the consumer being expected to pay the VAT, already calculated within that £70?

These are simple questions for any firm engaged in 'debt recovery' and charging for it.

Failure to adequately answer within 14 days will see BW Legal reported to HMRC who will be encouraged to scrutinise VAT records on all the £60 or £70 fees/costs collected by BW Legal, going back as many years as HMRC see fit.

Yours faithfully, 

Here is teir response:

Thank you for contacting us, please find our response below: Good morning,  As previously advised the Parking Charge issued is for the sum of £100.00 and our additional costs amount to £70.00. The additional cost of £70.00 represents the nature and type of work undertaken by debt recovery agents in the collection of the balance of the unpaid Parking Charge. Our Client is satisfied that you remain liable for the cost of the PCN and the costs of debt recovery, due to non-payment of the charge in question. This additional cost is deemed acceptable under the British Parking Association's (BPA) code of practice.  Please also be advised BW Legal are not an appeals service. You have already appealed this matter and your appeal was rejected. Please see attached your appeal response. The balance of £170.00 remains due and owing. If you have any further issues or new questions that you would like us to assist you with, we kindly request that you use the contact options below to submit a new query. Just to add they attached the letter with NCP response to my appeal from last Year. They did not answer any of the questions I asked them. I also received another email saying that my Letter of Claim expired in December, but they want to give me one more chance to pay... My question is should I continue exchanging emails with BWLegal or just ignore and wait for the court? thank in advance.

What a load of old rubbish
They rely on the BPA's unregulated code of practice which is known as the OSNER SCAM

The Supreme court .. ParkingEye v Barry Beavis ruled that the parking charge was set to include the operation of the scheme
They DID NOT say FAKE add-ons could be added

That's what BWLegal are doing ... ADDING FAKE CHARGES

SamDude

Thanks. Should I reply to BW Legal too?  should I add that I reported them to HMRC (am doing it now)?

No!
HMRC say do NOT tell them you have reported them (as this constitutes tipping off?)


Don't expect any acknowledgement or communication either...

What happens next
HMRC will:

• review your submitted report
• not provide updates due to confidentiality
• treat your information as private and confidential
• only contact you if necessary

pixie_man

OK Thanks Coupon-mad.
I am really lucky with these...I got another one from UKPC recently. and in their last letter they actually warn me that they will add £70 once this debt is passed to debt recovery agency. Is this legal?

3) If you choose to do nothing the parking charge will automatically increase after thirty-five days from the date of this letter to £100.00 and the matter will be passed to our debt recovery agent, at which point you will be liable to pay an additional charge of £70, in accordance with the terms and conditions of parking, and further charges will be claimed if court action is taken against you. Any unpaid court judgement may adversely affect your credit rating.

Coupon-mad

Yes - it's legal at the moment - but Judges generally see it as disproportionate.

I was never saying it's illegal.  This isn't about the £70.  It's about VAT on that £70.

The point here is that none of them are answering who is paying the VAT.  It's a simple question and they are all wriggling out of it.

pixie_man

Regarding tath other PCN I mentioned above. This is a different scenario, I went to a place and parked in the Visitors bay. I was convinced I can park them for free. It turned out there is a restriction saying you can't park them after 5pm. I wasn't aware of that, There is a sign sayng that but I didn't read it as it was dark and raining and I quickly run to the restaurant. What are the chances of winning POPLA appleal in this case? Should I bother or just pay £60? I feel strong resentment to the latter option as I didn't do it on purpose. I was very much conviced I can park there. I was parked for less than an hour. I appealed with UKPC as registered keeper using the templates provided here and not mentioned that I was actually there on the day. What would be your advise fellows? 
thanks