Challenging PCN for entering 8 minutes before permitted free period

Minimalist1978

Fruitcake said:

Appeal as keeper using the template in blue text.
Add that no Ts and Cs were breached. UKPS have not provided any proof of a breach. There are images of the car entering the car park and of it being parked, but no images showing it was parked without a permit, nor outside of a single marked bay, nor parked in excess of 24 hours, nor any other terms shown on the signs.

The entrance signs are crap and even mention a fine, which a private landowner nor their agents can issue.

I've already done the appeal template as explained in the initial post. 

Fruitcake

Minimalist1978 said:

(Being devil's advocate and anticipating what their arguments are going to be)

They're going to say I was in breach because I was parked 8 minutes before the free period began.

And they don't need images confirming it was parked without a permit, because all students need to apply (to them) for a permit, which my car has never had... therefore they know I don't have a permit and I cannot prove otherwise. 

Stop trying to do their job for them.

The parking contract is formed by signage at the site. They have to prove that the driver breached these Ts and Cs therefore they need to prove the vehicle did not have a permit.

Minimalist1978

Fruitcake said:

Minimalist1978 said:

(Being devil's advocate and anticipating what their arguments are going to be)

They're going to say I was in breach because I was parked 8 minutes before the free period began.

And they don't need images confirming it was parked without a permit, because all students need to apply (to them) for a permit, which my car has never had... therefore they know I don't have a permit and I cannot prove otherwise. 

Stop trying to do their job for them.

The parking contract is formed by signage at the site. They have to prove that the driver breached these Ts and Cs therefore they need to prove the vehicle did not have a permit.

I see, okay. So do you suggest I reply to their "Full and Final Response" email with my own 'Without Prejudice' request for substantive evidence of the breach of their T&Cs? Or should I file an appeal with the IAS? 

B789

Why would you request substantive evidence “without prejudice”? Do you understand what “without prejudice” means?

Coupon-mad

Minimalist1978 said:

Thanks in advance for any help you can provide, and particular thanks to @Coupon-mad and the other regulars fighting back against these shysters. 

I've read the Newbies/FAQ's thread and a few others, sent the initial Appeal Template and had a standard "Full and Final Response" rejection response come back (copied below). No surprises so far!!

Some facts:
* Operator is UKPS Limited (Leamington Spa)
* Location was Guildford College student car park. 
* Free parking is allowed from 6pm onwards.
* I arrived at 17:52 according to their clock and went on to stay until 19:10.

Presumably (although they have not confirmed this in their response), the penalty relates to the 8 minutes before the free period began. 

Do you think I have valid grounds to dispute this? More to the point, what other ways are there of getting out of it?!

This is the salient part of their response. The rest appears to be generic legal waffle but I can copy the full version if you want to read it all. 

" Whilst we can empathise with the driver, UKPS Limited will hold our clients best interests to the forefront at all times. This car park is private land that the landowner has designated for Student permit holders only. The College has instructed us to issue a Parking Charge Notice to any vehicle parked on this site without a valid Student permit. Any driver of any vehicle that parks on this private land has a consideration period of five minutes to read the site terms and conditions to make an informed decision as to whether or not to remain on the land. Should the driver of the vehicle decide to remain on the land, then the driver automatically accepts the terms and conditions. The consideration period is not a period of free parking. The vehicle was parked in a Student permit only bay without displaying a valid Student permit. Therefore, the driver of the vehicle was in direct contravention of the site terms and conditions. It is the sole responsibility of the vehicle driver to read the terms and conditions when parking on private land. The signs are clear and have been audited and approved by the trade governing body, the IPC.

 

The contract that UKPS Limited has with the owner or occupier of the land (which authorises UKPS Limited to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of Parking Charges in respect of parking of the vehicle on the land) contains a confidentiality clause and as such we are not in a position to provide the contract to you.

 

As a member of the Approved Operator Scheme, UKPS Limited are audited by the IPC to ensure that we have all relevant contracts in place. UKPS Limited will provide the court with a copy of this in full if they require it, or can provide a written statement to this effect from those party to the contract. We are also more than happy to provide confirmation to the independent assessors that we are authorised to manage parking at this site. We can confirm that parking management at this site has been contracted to UKPS Limited.

 

All of our signage is fully compliant with the guidelines set out within the IPC Code of Practice and we reject the notion that it is in any way unclear or ambiguous. The signage is printed on reflective material and is clearly illuminated in vehicle headlights within hours of darkness. "

I note the following:
* They have not explained the allegation specifically.
* They have confirmed the 'grace period' is only 5 minutes.
* They claim the signage is fully compliant but have not provided evidence.

I also note they have not commented on the clock they use to record arrival and departure times, which is presumably the internal clock of the CCTV. 
Is it worth me requesting evidence of when the clock was last calibrated?

Obviously I feel aggrieved about receiving a fine for such a short overstay, and the fact that I didn't even know that I was overstaying, since I had no idea that the car park was being monitored by an automated system (I'm still used to parking wardens!)...nor that I was, in fact, arriving slightly early, before the permitted free period had begun. 

Most grateful for any assistance. 

Reminding everyone where you are at.

IPC firm - so ignore them unless they try a small claim. Only contact them or their greedy waster 'debt collectors' if you move house, because you must never leave a PPC or their agents holding an old address or a choice of addresses for their claim form.

jacobb89

Minimalist1978 said:

Fruitcake said:

Appeal as keeper using the template in blue text.
Add that no Ts and Cs were breached. UKPS have not provided any proof of a breach. There are images of the car entering the car park and of it being parked, but no images showing it was parked without a permit, nor outside of a single marked bay, nor parked in excess of 24 hours, nor any other terms shown on the signs.

The entrance signs are crap and even mention a fine, which a private landowner nor their agents can issue.

I've already done the appeal template as explained in the initial post. 

One of my colleague in similar position.. Recieved pcn last week. Any updates on this pls 

Umkomaas

jacobb89 said:

Minimalist1978 said:

Fruitcake said:

Appeal as keeper using the template in blue text.
Add that no Ts and Cs were breached. UKPS have not provided any proof of a breach. There are images of the car entering the car park and of it being parked, but no images showing it was parked without a permit, nor outside of a single marked bay, nor parked in excess of 24 hours, nor any other terms shown on the signs.

The entrance signs are crap and even mention a fine, which a private landowner nor their agents can issue.

I've already done the appeal template as explained in the initial post. 

One of my colleague in similar position.. Recieved pcn last week. Any updates on this pls 

If the OP has followed advice as given by @Coupon-mad above, they're still in ignore mode, having heard nothing further from UKPS, or a time-wasting legal trying their hand on harassing them into submission and allowing them access to their wallet. 

Try a PM to them. 

Coupon-mad

The advice above is good for your colleague.  Tell them to read it as if it was for them.

Ignore UKPS.

jacobb89

Coupon-mad said:

The advice above is good for your colleague.  Tell them to read it as if it was for them.

Ignore UKPS.

Thanks, he is in process of creating an account on this site and still pending approval. 

For full case  - the ntk was send in weeks time.. Same contravention permit required.. Non pofa wordings..
Steps he decided to take.
1. Plan a send the email to the Guildford college. 
2. Plan b. Appeal to ukps via online. 
That's it I think.. Does popla applicable here? 
Is this Ok approach? He is scared and wants to pay 60  

fisherjim

jacobb89 said:

Coupon-mad said:

The advice above is good for your colleague.  Tell them to read it as if it was for them.

Ignore UKPS.

Thanks, he is in process of creating an account on this site and still pending approval. 

For full case  - the ntk was send in weeks time.. Same contravention permit required.. Non pofa wordings..
Steps he decided to take.
1. Plan a send the email to the Guildford college. 
2. Plan b. Appeal to ukps via online. 
That's it I think.. Does popla applicable here? 
Is this Ok approach? He is scared and wants to pay 60  

If you read the thread above you will notice that UKPS are IPC members so POPLA doesn't apply.

Why is he scared of a private parking company sending out an invoice, does Tesco instil fear into him too?