Challenging PCN for entering 8 minutes before permitted free period

Minimalist1978

Thanks in advance for any help you can provide, and particular thanks to @Coupon-mad and the other regulars fighting back against these shysters. 

I've read the Newbies/FAQ's thread and a few others, sent the initial Appeal Template and had a standard "Full and Final Response" rejection response come back (copied below). No surprises so far!!

Some facts:
* Operator is UKPS Limited (Leamington Spa)
* Location was Guildford College student car park. 
* Free parking is allowed from 6pm onwards.
* I arrived at 17:52 according to their clock and went on to stay until 19:10.

Presumably (although they have not confirmed this in their response), the penalty relates to the 8 minutes before the free period began. 

Do you think I have valid grounds to dispute this? More to the point, what other ways are there of getting out of it?!

This is the salient part of their response. The rest appears to be generic legal waffle but I can copy the full version if you want to read it all. 

" Whilst we can empathise with the driver, UKPS Limited will hold our clients best interests to the forefront at all times. This car park is private land that the landowner has designated for Student permit holders only. The College has instructed us to issue a Parking Charge Notice to any vehicle parked on this site without a valid Student permit. Any driver of any vehicle that parks on this private land has a consideration period of five minutes to read the site terms and conditions to make an informed decision as to whether or not to remain on the land. Should the driver of the vehicle decide to remain on the land, then the driver automatically accepts the terms and conditions. The consideration period is not a period of free parking. The vehicle was parked in a Student permit only bay without displaying a valid Student permit. Therefore, the driver of the vehicle was in direct contravention of the site terms and conditions. It is the sole responsibility of the vehicle driver to read the terms and conditions when parking on private land. The signs are clear and have been audited and approved by the trade governing body, the IPC.

 

The contract that UKPS Limited has with the owner or occupier of the land (which authorises UKPS Limited to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of Parking Charges in respect of parking of the vehicle on the land) contains a confidentiality clause and as such we are not in a position to provide the contract to you.

 

As a member of the Approved Operator Scheme, UKPS Limited are audited by the IPC to ensure that we have all relevant contracts in place. UKPS Limited will provide the court with a copy of this in full if they require it, or can provide a written statement to this effect from those party to the contract. We are also more than happy to provide confirmation to the independent assessors that we are authorised to manage parking at this site. We can confirm that parking management at this site has been contracted to UKPS Limited.

 

All of our signage is fully compliant with the guidelines set out within the IPC Code of Practice and we reject the notion that it is in any way unclear or ambiguous. The signage is printed on reflective material and is clearly illuminated in vehicle headlights within hours of darkness. "

I note the following:
* They have not explained the allegation specifically.
* They have confirmed the 'grace period' is only 5 minutes.
* They claim the signage is fully compliant but have not provided evidence.

I also note they have not commented on the clock they use to record arrival and departure times, which is presumably the internal clock of the CCTV. 
Is it worth me requesting evidence of when the clock was last calibrated?

Obviously I feel aggrieved about receiving a fine for such a short overstay, and the fact that I didn't even know that I was overstaying, since I had no idea that the car park was being monitored by an automated system (I'm still used to parking wardens!)...nor that I was, in fact, arriving slightly early, before the permitted free period had begun. 

Most grateful for any assistance. 

Coupon-mad

You haven't received a fine.  NOT a fine!

And it says the invoice is for:

"The vehicle was parked in a Student permit only bay without displaying a valid Student permit."

Show us a photo of the sign and obviously NO PAYING

And a screenshot of their photos please.

Trainerman

Unless I have missed something, the accusation is not actually about an overstay, but rather lack of a permit. Is there anything about permits on the signage ?

Just noticed Coupon-Mad beat me to it, but I wanted to add ...what did the original PCN say about what was alleged?

Minimalist1978

Yes, on the operator's payment portal, it says:

"Contravention: Permit Required"

I'm not sure if that means a permit was required at that precise time, which is correct (as students need a permit in order to park during the daytime before 6pm). Or does it mean that even after 6pm, I was required to display some kind of permit in order to park in that specific bay? 

Vague, unspecific, confusing... exactly like their signage on site...which is how their scams fool people.

I'll have to revisit the car park in order to take photos of the signs in question - may take a few days.

In the meantime, but here's the CCTV photos they took showing (in order) my car exiting, entering, before leaving and after parking. Blue redactions are my own, and I notice that they've been careful to redact other number plates and faces EXCEPT those further in the background (in image 3) which are smaller. I wonder if it could be argued on data protection grounds that they've failed to redact all personal/confidential data... Hopefully the resolution of my uploaded pics will be the same as the originals - rather grainy when zooming in but still just about possible to identify the other car reg numbers... 

Minimalist1978

Trainerman said:

Just noticed Coupon-Mad beat me to it, but I wanted to add ...what did the original PCN say about what was alleged?

On the PCN it simply says "...because it was parked in a manner whereby the driver of the vehicle became liable for a parking charge at Guildford College"

Coupon-mad

LOL not what I'd call lots of prominent t&c signs!

I spy a distant sign buried in foliage.

Fruitcake

Minimalist1978 said:

Trainerman said:

Just noticed Coupon-Mad beat me to it, but I wanted to add ...what did the original PCN say about what was alleged?

On the PCN it simply says "...because it was parked in a manner whereby the driver of the vehicle became liable for a parking charge at Guildford College"

It is not a penalty.

No mention of a permit nor lack thereof, (whether physical or an e-permit) nor an overstay, nor arriving before the free period, nor anything else for that matter.
"You broke the rules. We haven't told you what rules they were wot you broke, but you broke them alright."

Minimalist1978

I revisited the car park and the only signs on site are like this (although there are plenty of them - can't dispute that). My understanding is no different than before; that anyone can park after 6pm and that during those free periods, no permit (or anything else) is required. The T&C's only relate to Monday-Friday 8am to 6pm so outside of those hours, there are no conditions at all.

So, although UKPS haven't confirmed exactly why the "Parking Charge" has been issued, it appears to be for the 8 minutes early arrival. 

Any suggestions?

Coupon-mad

Totally agree.  T&cs only apply to cars parked before 6pm.  You should say you were not in breach at all.

Fruitcake

Appeal as keeper using the template in blue text.
Add that no Ts and Cs were breached. UKPS have not provided any proof of a breach. There are images of the car entering the car park and of it being parked, but no images showing it was parked without a permit, nor outside of a single marked bay, nor parked in excess of 24 hours, nor any other terms shown on the signs.

The entrance signs are crap and even mention a fine, which a private landowner nor their agents can issue.

Minimalist1978

(Being devil's advocate and anticipating what their arguments are going to be)

They're going to say I was in breach because I was parked 8 minutes before the free period began.

And they don't need images confirming it was parked without a permit, because all students need to apply (to them) for a permit, which my car has never had... therefore they know I don't have a permit and I cannot prove otherwise.