Martin Lewis: Why are energy standing charges so high? What can be done

BarelySentientAI

Chris_b2z said:

The French system seems so much simpler and fairer. Those that need a higher rating supply pay higher standing charge with 70% of households selecting the 6kVA option. Genius!

By definition not simpler when they have 9 choices and we have 1.

Most people here wouldn't have a clue what they need, and would choose the cheapest one because they think everything's too expensive or the most expensive one just in case - then either start complaining "why has my charge gone up without my consent", or be paying more than they already do.

Chris_b2z

MattMattMattUK said:

According to online research flats tend to have the 9kVa option, with houses using the higher options, however for electric heating which is more popular way from major cities then 18+ is required to allow for enough yo operate heating.

Online information from a reliable source seems to suggest that your understanding is not entirely accurate -

'the majority of French households have 6 kVA capacity installed (about 70%)'

BarelySentientAI

Chris_b2z said:

MattMattMattUK said:

According to online research flats tend to have the 9kVa option, with houses using the higher options, however for electric heating which is more popular way from major cities then 18+ is required to allow for enough yo operate heating.

Online information from a reliable source seems to suggest that your understanding is not entirely accurate -

'the majority of French households have 6 kVA capacity installed (about 70%)'

That's an unusually low number if you look at it from the demand side.  Basically means no more than two appliances on at any time.

Do you think the people who already say they won't do ToU tariffs because "nobody can tell me when to use electricity" would be happy if they couldn't use the oven & kettle at the same time unless they turned the lights and tv off?

I've not actually looked much into how it is checked - instantaneous power, time-based average .... ??

Chris_b2z

BarelySentientAI said:

Do you think the people who already say they won't do ToU tariffs because "nobody can tell me when to use electricity" would be happy if they couldn't use the oven & kettle at the same time unless they turned the lights and tv off?

I'm pretty sure the French would not tolerate a system where the owner of a lavish chateau pays the same exorbitant standing charge as someone in a tiny bedsit.

MattMattMattUK

Chris_b2z said:

MattMattMattUK said:

According to online research flats tend to have the 9kVa option, with houses using the higher options, however for electric heating which is more popular way from major cities then 18+ is required to allow for enough yo operate heating.

Online information from a reliable source seems to suggest that your understanding is not entirely accurate -

'the majority of French households have 6 kVA capacity installed (about 70%)'

80 m2 or smaller home... that is a one bedroom flat, the majority of homes in France are larger than that. 

Also as AI says that makes little sense from a demand perspective, at 6kVA running an electric oven at the same time as say a kettle would exceed the power limit, electric water heater, electric space heating etc. would all exceed that limit if used with other high draw appliances. 

Chris_b2z said:

BarelySentientAI said:

Do you think the people who already say they won't do ToU tariffs because "nobody can tell me when to use electricity" would be happy if they couldn't use the oven & kettle at the same time unless they turned the lights and tv off?

I'm pretty sure the French would not tolerate a system where the owner of a lavish chateau pays the same exorbitant standing charge as someone in a tiny bedsit.

I think AI was pointing more to the British public, who more than 60% said that they would not cut back on usage if asked to do so as part of winter efforts to avoid blackouts. Can you imagine how the British public would react if using the kettle at the same time as the oven meant their power cut out?

The French are pushing ahead with ToU tariffs. Because their base load is covered by nuclear peak generation incurs extra costs where as the rest of the time it needs no additional fuel so they are going to move everyone to ToU tariffs by 2040 latest and they want 75%, including all cities on ToU by the end of the decade. 

Someone in a lavish chateau will probably be on three-phase if their power requirements are that high. 

dunstonh

Chris_b2z said:

BarelySentientAI said:

Do you think the people who already say they won't do ToU tariffs because "nobody can tell me when to use electricity" would be happy if they couldn't use the oven & kettle at the same time unless they turned the lights and tv off?

I'm pretty sure the French would not tolerate a system where the owner of a lavish chateau pays the same exorbitant standing charge as someone in a tiny bedsit.

What if the chateau is 60amp and the bedsit is 100amp?

Chris_b2z

The size of property is irrelevant.

The fact is that French consumers are given a choice and 70% of them are choosing the cheaper standing charge option even if it means having to limit the simultaneous usage of high power appliances. Those that find it too inconvenient can subscribe to a higher kVA rating and pay higher standing charge. It's the same choice we make when selecting broadband speed.

One argument given against reducing standing charges in UK is that it would require an increase in usage rate which would affect some vulnerable users. Does anyone have links showing that the French system of tiered standing charges having an adverse affect on vulnerable users?

wrf12345

Or you just get rid of the s/c and have different unit rates applied to usage, so the first 2kwh (per day) would be at 5p, say, and the average user would be paying 25p, very higher users say 50p, with variation on ToU possible as well - that kind of combo would tend to take load off the grid overall and at peak times, saving vast sums of money and toning down the need for future investment.

MattMattMattUK

Chris_b2z said:

The size of property is irrelevant.

The fact is that French consumers are given a choice and 70% of them are choosing the cheaper standing charge option even if it means having to limit the simultaneous usage of high power appliances. Those that find it too inconvenient can subscribe to a higher kVA rating and pay higher standing charge. It's the same choice we make when selecting broadband speed.

No it is not, your broadband does not cut off and/or your devices do not stop working if you try to download too much at once, one just finds that downloads are slower.

Chris_b2z said:

One argument given against reducing standing charges in UK is that it would require an increase in usage rate which would affect some vulnerable users. Does anyone have links showing that the French system of tiered standing charges having an adverse affect on vulnerable users?

The are two different things. Reducing/abolishing the standing charge would transfer those costs to the unit rate, increasing the unit rate which would increase bills for all but low users. Low users are usually those with solar, batteries and heat pumps, average users are usually families and higher users are usually elderly and the disabled. The French system limits maximum draw at any point in time, it does not charge users more based on their consumption. 

MattMattMattUK

wrf12345 said:

Or you just get rid of the s/c and have different unit rates applied to usage, so the first 2kwh (per day) would be at 5p, say, and the average user would be paying 25p, very higher users say 50p, with variation on ToU possible as well - that kind of combo would tend to take load off the grid overall and at peak times, saving vast sums of money and toning down the need for future investment.

The costs that are currently covered by the standing charge would still need to be paid, so the first two units woild need to be 30p more expensive, not 5p more expensive. When one then accounts for properties that have zero usage on some days it might end up meaning the first two units need to be 40p more expensive. 

What you are again saying is you want higher and average users to subsidise low users, that is the opposite of "fair" that you claim you want. ToU for usage makes rational sense, it removes subsidy, abolishing the standing charge would add subsidy and is not rational.