1930s phone wiring?

Apodemus

I am struggling to get decent Broadband speeds (0.28 Mb download) and have had Openreach visit a number of times.  They have renewed the wiring from the pole to the outside of the house, ignored the 16m or so of 1930s, cloth-covered wiring inside the house, then connected a 5C box at the phone end of the old wiring.  It seems to me that it would make sense for me to replace the run of wiring and eliminate all the old junctions and I am happy to do this myself.  But I am not clear on where my wiring starts and BT's wiring ends.  Apart from the Openreach 5C socket, there is no other recognisable Master Socket or junction box.  Does that mean I can't touch the cable run up to the 5C?

The wiring run is as follows:
1) New wires from pole to outside of house.
2) 1970s plastic-coated copper wires through wall of house
3) 1930s (?) brass junction box where wires come into house. (Pic below)
4) c14m run of Fabric-covered pair wires.
5) 1930s (?) bell box (Openreach guy had never seen anything like this and took pics to show his colleagues)  
6) c 3m run of 1970s plastic-coated wires
7) bakelite junction box
8) c1m 1980s wiring
9) New Openreach 5C box

I'd be happy for BT to simply install whatever master socket immediately inside the house where the wires come in and take responsibility for the rest myself, but for some reason Openreach don't seem to see my wiring run as a problem and don't understand why I am not getting better speeds.

This is where the line enters the house.  You can see the incoming grey wires at the bottom and the brown cloth-insulated wires at the top that run on through the house.  Is this wiring mine or BT's?  And can Openreach really believe that this is OK for Broadband use?  Or can I make the assumption that this is the master socket and I am free to do whatever I like on the consumer side of this box?
 
  

Neil_Jones

What the frig?

As a general rule anything up to and including the master socket is BT's responsibility, and anything on "your" side of that is yours.

So you are saying that the cable from the telegraph pole comes in, goes through... whatever the heck that is and then to a master socket?

Looking at the state of that I wouldn't be surprised if that is the cause of your problems to be honest.

Have a look at your master socket.  IIRC the 5c comes in a few diferent variations, some are pre-filtered and others aren't (difference being if it has two plugs on the front if its pre-filtered).  If you are able to pull off the bottom half of the socket this will expose the test socket and has the effect of disconnecting the extensions.  If you run with that for a while and your speed picks up as the line retrains, then something on your side is causing your problems.

Apodemus

Neil_Jones said:

What the frig?

As a general rule anything up to and including the master socket is BT's responsibility, and anything on "your" side of that is yours.

Yes, that was also my understanding. The current issue is actually with my parents' house. My own house has a more normal arrangement of a white BT box where the cable comes in, then about 8m of my own wiring, then the BT 5C box at the phone. So in my home arrangement, the BT responsibility is only up to the equivalent of where the brass junction box is on my parents' house.

Neil_Jones said:

So you are saying that the cable from the telegraph pole comes in, goes through... whatever the heck that is and then to a master socket?

Yes - if indeed I do have anything else that could be described as a Master Socket! It could be this brass contraption, it could be the bakelight junction box or it could be the BT 5C.

Neil_Jones said:

Looking at the state of that I wouldn't be surprised if that is the cause of your problems to be honest.

Yes, that seems obvious to me, too, but then the guys from Openreach keep telling me that there is nothing they can find wrong and that I should be getting better speeds.

Neil_Jones said:

Have a look at your master socket.  IIRC the 5c comes in a few diferent variations, some are pre-filtered and others aren't (difference being if it has two plugs on the front if its pre-filtered).  If you are able to pull off the bottom half of the socket this will expose the test socket and has the effect of disconnecting the extensions.  If you run with that for a while and your speed picks up as the line retrains, then something on your side is causing your problems.

Yes, it is the filtered type. My testing has been with an ethernet cable connected to the router, but I've not tried the router directly to the test socket.

Line training might be an issue. I believe that the 280kb download that I get is the base level on an untrained line, so perhaps that is the problem.  I'm only at the property a couple of times a week and when it is really slow, I normally give up and use my mobile as a hotspot. I guess I should persevere with the broadband, to help train it.

But I still think that old wiring needs to go!  I might try connecting the 5C directly to the incoming pair of wires with a length of Cat6 cable and see what that does to it.

onomatopoeia99

Apodemus said:

Line training might be an issue. I believe that the 280kb download that I get is the base level on an untrained line, so perhaps that is the problem.  I'm only at the property a couple of times a week and when it is really slow, I normally give up and use my mobile as a hotspot. I guess I should persevere with the broadband, to help train it.

Just leave the router connected and powered up while you're not there and it'll happen on its own, your physical presence in the property is not required.

Section62

Apodemus said:

This is where the line enters the house.  You can see the incoming grey wires at the bottom and the brown cloth-insulated wires at the top that run on through the house.  Is this wiring mine or BT's?  And can Openreach really believe that this is OK for Broadband use?  Or can I make the assumption that this is the master socket and I am free to do whatever I like on the consumer side of this box?
 

My guess would be the picture is of some form of surge/lightning protection device.

But the master socket is the 5C with very little doubt.  The basic principle of the 'master socket' was having a point where the consumer could connect/disconnect their equipment by simply plugging it in/unplugging without 'live' terminals being exposed - so to protect the telecommunications network and the consumer.

You can ask Openreach to move the 5C, but I expect they will want paying for it as an alteration to the installation - and a DIY approach risks your parents being billed for an engineer to inspect/repair the installation if they find out about it (and that's a higher risk if they have visited recently and been taking pictures of things).

'Old' doesn't necessarily mean 'bad'.  An old-school 'BT' engineer once told me that the ancient external cable to my parent's place was something to be treasured, as the thick copper conductors would provide for a far better broadband signal than the modern rubbish being installed.  Whether or not that still holds true I don't know though.

Does the bell box still do anything? (e.g. does it still ring?)  If I were to guess the most likely thing to be causing an issue (other than the modern stuff needing time to think) then I'd suspect the bell box (if still active) might be the culprit and it would be surprising (or not) if the Openreach staff haven't disconnected it.

Apodemus

Section62 said:

... the master socket is the 5C with very little doubt.  The basic principle of the 'master socket' was having a point where the consumer could connect/disconnect their equipment by simply plugging it in/unplugging without 'live' terminals being exposed - so to protect the telecommunications network and the consumer.

Thanks. Yes, I can see the logic in that, but it is confusing. I have the same 5C box in my own home where Openreach confirmed that the Master socket was the BT-branded box just inside the window and they were clear that the wiring between there and the 5C was my responsibility.

My guess would be the picture is of some form of surge/lightning protection device.

Again, this makes sense. At my own home the Openreach engineer replaced the internals of the master socket, where the terminals had been blackened by a surge of some sort. Aparently there had been a lightning strike on the phone line nearby a couple of years ago and one of the houses had a fire as a result.

Section62 said:

If I were to guess the most likely thing to be causing an issue (other than the modern stuff needing time to think) then I'd suspect the bell box (if still active) might be the culprit and it would be surprising (or not) if the Openreach staff haven't disconnected it.

I'll have a look, but I think Openreach bypassed the box on one of their visits, they certainly looked at it.

You might be right that thick copper wires are to be treasured. I loosened and tightened the screws on the box in the picture just to see if that would help, but I might take it a stage further and clean the contacts - there is a lot of verdigris present in that box.

Apodemus

onomatopoeia99 said:

Apodemus said:

Line training might be an issue. I believe that the 280kb download that I get is the base level on an untrained line, so perhaps that is the problem.  I'm only at the property a couple of times a week and when it is really slow, I normally give up and use my mobile as a hotspot. I guess I should persevere with the broadband, to help train it.

Just leave the router connected and powered up while you're not there and it'll happen on its own, your physical presence in the property is not required.

Thanks.  Yes, I do leave it powered up and connected, but the stats remain at 280Kb for download.

Section62

Apodemus said:

Section62 said:

... the master socket is the 5C with very little doubt.  The basic principle of the 'master socket' was having a point where the consumer could connect/disconnect their equipment by simply plugging it in/unplugging without 'live' terminals being exposed - so to protect the telecommunications network and the consumer.

Thanks. Yes, I can see the logic in that, but it is confusing. I have the same 5C box in my own home where Openreach confirmed that the Master socket was the BT-branded box just inside the window and they were clear that the wiring between there and the 5C was my responsibility.

BT-branded 5C boxes can be purchased on the internet.  Although phone extensions can be wired in using secondary sockets, it isn't beyond possible someone decided to wire up an extension using a second 'master socket' instead of a secondary.

BT/Openreach usually only have responsibility up to the first master socket, regardless of what type of sockets are installed further on in the system.

I suspect that might be something like your situation - the 5C box isn't the 'official' master socket and was someone's DIY addition/replacement.

Apodemus

Section62 said:

Apodemus said:

Section62 said:

... the master socket is the 5C with very little doubt.  The basic principle of the 'master socket' was having a point where the consumer could connect/disconnect their equipment by simply plugging it in/unplugging without 'live' terminals being exposed - so to protect the telecommunications network and the consumer.

Thanks. Yes, I can see the logic in that, but it is confusing. I have the same 5C box in my own home where Openreach confirmed that the Master socket was the BT-branded box just inside the window and they were clear that the wiring between there and the 5C was my responsibility.

BT-branded 5C boxes can be purchased on the internet.  Although phone extensions can be wired in using secondary sockets, it isn't beyond possible someone decided to wire up an extension using a second 'master socket' instead of a secondary.previous

BT/Openreach usually only have responsibility up to the first master socket, regardless of what type of sockets are installed further on in the system.

I suspect that might be something like your situation - the 5C box isn't the 'official' master socket and was someone's DIY addition/replacement.

I think it was probably just that I had a helpful guy from BT!  He installed the 5C on what was originally an extension line in the kitchen - the previous router had never worked properly on the master socket, but worked well on the extension line.  Once it was all working fairly well in the kitchen, he mentioned minor interference on the line and sorted out the master socket.  He then talked me through how best to replace the wiring with Cat6, showed me which wires to connect and left me a few gel crimp connectors!    I just wish I could get the same guy out to my parents' house!  

Rodders53

https://telephonesuk.org.uk/connection-boxes/ looks to be a protected (i.e. fused, no spark arrestors) box style.  Apart from the (?rubber) insulation cracking... nothing much to see there

Officially you are not allowed to touch any wiring before the master socket... but if you relocated it carefully to where the overhead drop wire enters the house it's unlikely anyone would ever know.  Openreach and BT and GPO before them never kept records.  Then use your own cabling to the modem-router from there?

Do check what the ADSL speed checker suggests for the line to parents...  and whether FTTC is available... as you may be expecting more speed than is possible?  https://www.broadbandchecker.btwholesale.com/#/ADSL

Unless there are wired extension phones in regular use, try running on the master test socket only with one phone (or DECT base station)? 

If you decide to get Openreach back to the parents - try to ensure you can be present to avoid the lazier techs not wanting to do the job properly for lack of time or experience?  and to witness their speed checks.

Apodemus

Rodders53 said:

https://telephonesuk.org.uk/connection-boxes/ looks to be a protected (i.e. fused, no spark arrestors) box style.  Apart from the (?rubber) insulation cracking... nothing much to see there

Thanks for the link there! I had tried a reverse image lookup and was only getting sewing machine parts! It does look like the second and third pictures on that list, except my box has no fuses - unless the brass (?) bars with 1A on them are actually 1Amp fuses?

 The cracked insulation is actully on the waste side of the screw-fixing, that is just the excess wire that is showing.

From that link I can now also identify the bakelite junction box near the phone as a Block Terminal 20/4 - although our is brown, which isn't one of the options shown. 

Rodders53 said:

Officially you are not allowed to touch any wiring before the master socket... but if you relocated it carefully to where the overhead drop wire enters the house it's unlikely anyone would ever know.  Openreach and BT and GPO before them never kept records.  Then use your own cabling to the modem-router from there?

Yes, what I was initially suggesting was to run a temporary cable from the dropline (the grey wires in the pic) directly to the 5C master socket, just to see if that made any difference.  I could then reinstall it all back to original if I needed to get the engineers out.