Refused Delivery - Royal Mail Claimed It was delivered

Chippyshell

DullGreyGuy said:

Chippyshell said:

DullGreyGuy said:

It would be helpful for you to confirm exactly what RM is saying the official position of the parcel is... delivered to you, refused by you to be return to sender but unknown if that happened or delivered to the sender? Also confirm if you have that in writing from Royal Mail?

Also confused by your explanation that they had "just been launched"? The annual release of iPhones happens in september and the iPhone 14 came out in the UK on 16 September 2022 so an order in January was, in tech terms, a fairly long time after launch, a third of the way towards the iPhone 15

"We are confident that the scans obtained post-delivery on 17/01/23 and of late were as a result of a barcode issue associated with a specific bag and actually had no bearing on the physical item itself;

"To provide more detail, sometimes if we experience an issue with scanning a barcode, our operational colleagues sometimes have to enter a tracking number manually which in this case was mis-typed causing incorrect tracking information to be attributed to this reference" - Hence it was scanned as 'refused - returned to sender' and now has a subsequent delivery scan."

This is from the retailer on behalf of RM as the retailer their customer i cant contact then directly and ask for information it. The reason for purchasing and refusing is irrelevant,  I dont keep up to date with technolnogy just had a marketing email and ussumed they either got them back in stock or they had just came out.

To be honest it was 6months ago soo yeh.

The problem is that the scans on the 17th say both delivered to you and refused by you and delivered to the sender so the above advice is incomplete.

It would seem unlikely that if you refused it on the 17th it'd also have made its way back to sender on the 17th too but you may be paraphrasing or RM's wording may be poor. If its RM's poor wording then they'd presumably be able to confirm when they did actually deliver it back to the sender.

Whilst other couriers very much play the "you arent our customer card", I've always found RM to be much more reasonable on this front and ultimately you are asking "where's my parcel". 

Ive added a screenshot to the thread, which shows the history

DullGreyGuy

Chippyshell said:

DullGreyGuy said:

Chippyshell said:

DullGreyGuy said:

It would be helpful for you to confirm exactly what RM is saying the official position of the parcel is... delivered to you, refused by you to be return to sender but unknown if that happened or delivered to the sender? Also confirm if you have that in writing from Royal Mail?

Also confused by your explanation that they had "just been launched"? The annual release of iPhones happens in september and the iPhone 14 came out in the UK on 16 September 2022 so an order in January was, in tech terms, a fairly long time after launch, a third of the way towards the iPhone 15

"We are confident that the scans obtained post-delivery on 17/01/23 and of late were as a result of a barcode issue associated with a specific bag and actually had no bearing on the physical item itself;

"To provide more detail, sometimes if we experience an issue with scanning a barcode, our operational colleagues sometimes have to enter a tracking number manually which in this case was mis-typed causing incorrect tracking information to be attributed to this reference" - Hence it was scanned as 'refused - returned to sender' and now has a subsequent delivery scan."

This is from the retailer on behalf of RM as the retailer their customer i cant contact then directly and ask for information it. The reason for purchasing and refusing is irrelevant,  I dont keep up to date with technolnogy just had a marketing email and ussumed they either got them back in stock or they had just came out.

To be honest it was 6months ago soo yeh.

The problem is that the scans on the 17th say both delivered to you and refused by you and delivered to the sender so the above advice is incomplete.

It would seem unlikely that if you refused it on the 17th it'd also have made its way back to sender on the 17th too but you may be paraphrasing or RM's wording may be poor. If its RM's poor wording then they'd presumably be able to confirm when they did actually deliver it back to the sender.

Whilst other couriers very much play the "you arent our customer card", I've always found RM to be much more reasonable on this front and ultimately you are asking "where's my parcel". 

Ive added a screenshot to the thread, which shows the history

Which shows the same, that on the 17th they claim to have both delivered it and subsequently had it refused. That piece needs clarification of what happened.

The scans in May are just an error and can be ignored as RM have said. 

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

DullGreyGuy said:

Chippyshell said:

DullGreyGuy said:

It would be helpful for you to confirm exactly what RM is saying the official position of the parcel is... delivered to you, refused by you to be return to sender but unknown if that happened or delivered to the sender? Also confirm if you have that in writing from Royal Mail?

Also confused by your explanation that they had "just been launched"? The annual release of iPhones happens in september and the iPhone 14 came out in the UK on 16 September 2022 so an order in January was, in tech terms, a fairly long time after launch, a third of the way towards the iPhone 15

"We are confident that the scans obtained post-delivery on 17/01/23 and of late were as a result of a barcode issue associated with a specific bag and actually had no bearing on the physical item itself;

"To provide more detail, sometimes if we experience an issue with scanning a barcode, our operational colleagues sometimes have to enter a tracking number manually which in this case was mis-typed causing incorrect tracking information to be attributed to this reference" - Hence it was scanned as 'refused - returned to sender' and now has a subsequent delivery scan."

This is from the retailer on behalf of RM as the retailer their customer i cant contact then directly and ask for information it. The reason for purchasing and refusing is irrelevant,  I dont keep up to date with technolnogy just had a marketing email and ussumed they either got them back in stock or they had just came out.

To be honest it was 6months ago soo yeh.

The problem is that the scans on the 17th say both delivered to you and refused by you and delivered to the sender so the above advice is incomplete.

It would seem unlikely that if you refused it on the 17th it'd also have made its way back to sender on the 17th too but you may be paraphrasing or RM's wording may be poor. If its RM's poor wording then they'd presumably be able to confirm when they did actually deliver it back to the sender.
 

The scan which says 

Tracking showed Refused and returned to sender 17/01/2023

Is the action of doing so rather than the conclusion

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Chippyshell said:

Here is the screenshot - Then the additional scans in May

Thanks OP

It's a shame those delivered and refused scans are a few hours apart rather than a few minutes. 

It's not uncommon for parcels to be marked as delivered beforehand, as you say they may be waiting for you to open the door, I'd expect them to have scanned it as refused there and then also but it would not be outrageous to suggest it was done back at the DO after the post person got back from their round. 

The scans in May are academic. 

Ultimately if you can't convince the bank or retailer to refund you have to look at small claims, there is a risk the court doesn't know much about Royal Mail tracking and procedures and takes the view that you took possession and then refused, they might however take the view it's not possible for you to refuse a delivery 5 hours after taking possession, basically it's balance of probability in the court's opinion.

I don't know what 2 iPhones cost but I guessing a fair amount, best bet is bank's complaints, ombudsman, letter before action and then small claims (easier to get the money from the bank, I don't know if you can name both bank & retailer in one case).

You need to ensure you understand the passing of risk clause.

I'm not sure if you communicated anything to the retailer to suggest that you were cancelling your contract?

Chippyshell

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Chippyshell said:

Here is the screenshot - Then the additional scans in May

Thanks OP

It's a shame those delivered and refused scans are a few hours apart rather than a few minutes. 

It's not uncommon for parcels to be marked as delivered beforehand, as you say they may be waiting for you to open the door, I'd expect them to have scanned it as refused there and then also but it would not be outrageous to suggest it was done back at the DO after the post person got back from their round. 

The scans in May are academic. 

Ultimately if you can't convince the bank or retailer to refund you have to look at small claims, there is a risk the court doesn't know much about Royal Mail tracking and procedures and takes the view that you took possession and then refused, they might however take the view it's not possible for you to refuse a delivery 5 hours after taking possession, basically it's balance of probability in the court's opinion.

I don't know what 2 iPhones cost but I guessing a fair amount, best bet is bank's complaints, ombudsman, letter before action and then small claims (easier to get the money from the bank, I don't know if you can name both bank & retailer in one case).

You need to ensure you understand the passing of risk clause.

I'm not sure if you communicated anything to the retailer to suggest that you were cancelling your contract?

Hi thanks for the detailed response.

I don't know what 2 iPhones cost but I guessing a fair amount, best bet is bank's complaints, ombudsman, letter before action and then small claims (easier to get the money from the bank, I don't know if you can name both bank & retailer in one case).

Currently in the complaints process however this has a 8 week delay, i will also put the case foward that the unpaid balance on the credit card is causing financial difficulty along with the stress. Its not a small amount appox 2,400

I'm not sure if you communicated anything to the retailer to suggest that you were cancelling your contract?

I emailed the Retailer on the day of refusal stating that the items had been refused and asked when the refund would be received and since then we've been going email to email appox 200 emails.

Does the small claims go against the company? or the bank?

born_again

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Pass of risk occurs when the consumer (or someone named by them) takes physical possession.

Refusing delivery means risk remains with the trader. 

A refund is due under delivery of goods from the CRA. 

If S75 applies to the payment the card provider can't insist you follow the retailer's return process as the CRA supersedes this. 

As S75 is based on breach of contract or misrepresentation. Given Op failed to follow retailers procedure. It will be rejected, as OP has failed to follow retailer T/C.

This is where refusing delivery is fraught with problems.

Chippyshell

born_again said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Pass of risk occurs when the consumer (or someone named by them) takes physical possession.

Refusing delivery means risk remains with the trader. 

A refund is due under delivery of goods from the CRA. 

If S75 applies to the payment the card provider can't insist you follow the retailer's return process as the CRA supersedes this. 

As S75 is based on breach of contract or misrepresentation. Given Op failed to follow retailers procedure. It will be rejected, as OP has failed to follow retailer T/C.

This is where refusing delivery is fraught with problems.

The terms of service are slighlty confusing as they run a buisness based on selling your phone to them and them reselling kinda like musicmagpie

5.3. When the order is placed via the Platforms we expect you / the seller to
package and send the device. We will reimburse up to £10 for the
delivery and it is your responsibility to make sure your device is
adequately protected and insured for loss in case the parcel is lost in
transit.

6.5. The delivery company used by XXX will be responsible for any loss
or damage that occurs to your phone during transit. We will provide
you with the tracking information to raise a claim with the courier.
We will be able to compensate as much as the courier is able to pay
us back after we open a claim. Please allow up to 40 days to process
the claim to get the figure that will be paid back

6.7. You will be eligible for a refund within 30 days of purchase, provided that
you return it in the same condition you received it in. (For phones
purchased in their original sealed packaging, this means the packaging
must remain sealed and unopened / unactivated). You may request a
refund via email or in-app chat.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Chippyshell said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Chippyshell said:

Here is the screenshot - Then the additional scans in May

Thanks OP

It's a shame those delivered and refused scans are a few hours apart rather than a few minutes. 

It's not uncommon for parcels to be marked as delivered beforehand, as you say they may be waiting for you to open the door, I'd expect them to have scanned it as refused there and then also but it would not be outrageous to suggest it was done back at the DO after the post person got back from their round. 

The scans in May are academic. 

Ultimately if you can't convince the bank or retailer to refund you have to look at small claims, there is a risk the court doesn't know much about Royal Mail tracking and procedures and takes the view that you took possession and then refused, they might however take the view it's not possible for you to refuse a delivery 5 hours after taking possession, basically it's balance of probability in the court's opinion.

I don't know what 2 iPhones cost but I guessing a fair amount, best bet is bank's complaints, ombudsman, letter before action and then small claims (easier to get the money from the bank, I don't know if you can name both bank & retailer in one case).

You need to ensure you understand the passing of risk clause.

I'm not sure if you communicated anything to the retailer to suggest that you were cancelling your contract?

Hi thanks for the detailed response.

I don't know what 2 iPhones cost but I guessing a fair amount, best bet is bank's complaints, ombudsman, letter before action and then small claims (easier to get the money from the bank, I don't know if you can name both bank & retailer in one case).

Currently in the complaints process however this has a 8 week delay, i will also put the case foward that the unpaid balance on the credit card is causing financial difficulty along with the stress. Its not a small amount appox 2,400

I'm not sure if you communicated anything to the retailer to suggest that you were cancelling your contract?

I emailed the Retailer on the day of refusal stating that the items had been refused and asked when the refund would be received and since then we've been going email to email appox 200 emails.

Does the small claims go against the company? or the bank?

Thanks OP

If S75 is applicable, should you have to go to the ombudsman, you would stating the bank are jointly and severely liable under Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and your position is that you exercised the right to cancel the contract in accordance with:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/3134/regulation/32

(2) To cancel a contract under regulation 29(1), the consumer must inform the trader of the decision to cancel it.

(3) To inform the trader under paragraph (2) the consumer may either—

(a)use a form following the model cancellation form in part B of Schedule 3, or

(b)make any other clear statement setting out the decision to cancel the contract.

and as delivery was refused risk did not pass in accordance with the passing of risk clause posted earlier.

Regarding who to take to small claims it can be either, bank is more likely to pay if you win. 

There is an MSE guide on Section 75, outlining where it does and doesn't (or might be a grey area) 

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/reclaim/section75-protect-your-purchases/

and it would be worth looking over and ensuring the transaction is actually covered by Section 75. 

born_again

Who is this company's that sold you the 2 phones?

Chippyshell

born_again said:

Who is this company's that sold you the 2 phones?

Vendi

https://vendiapp.com/