Paying for a return at my own cost?

Yord51

I'd appreciate some guidance about returning an item at my own cost.

The goods were 5kg of peanuts for wild birds, ordered from Amazon and described in the title as "Split and Blanched Peanuts".

A note in the side panel said the item was non-returnable but "eligible for refund if damaged or defective. This item is non-returnable, but if the item arrives damaged or defective, you may request a refund."

The order dispatched from the seller, not from Amazon.

It arrived very promptly last Wednesday but the majority were whole peanuts rather than splits. Not that I opened the bag (only the box it was in), but it was clear through the plastic there were many more whole nuts than splits.

In addition to the titling, one of the selling points in the top description beneath was "Split or broken peanuts reduce the risk of a choking hazard for hatchlings and young birds." I already knew this, and it's precisely the reason why I searched out and ordered these, as they were described as splits.

I contacted the seller via Amazon messaging on Thursday evening, stated that the item did not match the description (I offered to send a photo), said I'd seen the "non-returnable" notice, but as the bag was unopened I asked if it could be returned for a refund.

They replied on Friday morning, asking for a photo so they could "just check", but continued with "Nowever [sic] after talking to our warehouse and supplier this is how they are been [sic] manufactured at the moment With whole nuts and splits."

It looks as if they were unaware that the composition of the item had been changed until after I'd made contact about it and they followed it up -- in fact I commented on this when replying later on Friday when sending two photos (one a closeup, and one of the whole bag still unopened), saying surely the change should have been mentioned to them by the supplier.

They replied yesterday:

"If they are unopened you can return them to us for a refund. However because amazon dont do a returns on this you would have to return it yourself and pay for it yourself. As soon as it arrives back to us and as [sic] been checked we will refund your order."

I'd appreciate advice about standing the cost of the return.

I see the point (and possibly a problem from their point of view?) that Amazon had the non-returnable caveat on the page, so maybe it cannot be handled that way. In fact when I wanted to contact the seller about this I first tried an option/reason from "Problem with Order" from my Orders page that didn't achieve what I wanted to do -- can't remember the wording thrown up when I tried that route, but instead I then went through "Other" as a reason, which gave an option to contact the seller.

It doesn't seem quite fair that I must pay for the return. If I'm reading Royal Mail's Collect price list correctly, for the weight and size and Tracking 48 with no signature, I would pay £6.65, so from an £18 order I would get something over £11 back.

You could say £11+ is better than nothing -- and of course it is -- but surely the point is that the goods were not "as described"? I'm not at fault. OK, it doesn't seem to be their fault either, which I take on board, but with all due respect to them, should that be my problem? I'm gaining no advantage -- they will have all the nuts back, yet even if the £17.99 cost is refunded, I'm still down on the deal. Obviously we're not talking megabucks here (more like peanuts -- sorry!), but the principle doesn't seem quite right to me.

I've tried to find out the situation with paying for return costs at a few places like the CAB, a gov page, Which? and so on, but didn't see anything about whether they should be refunded or not. It seems to be that if shipping was charged in the first place, it should also be refunded as well as the goods, but in this case it wasn't -- there was free standard delivery. And there's the added complication that the sale was through Amazon who, presumably because of the nature of the goods, said they were non-returnable.

A Which? page on the Consumer Contracts Regulations has this (my bold):

Returning faulty goods

If you receive faulty goods and wish to return them, the Regulations are in addition to your other legal rights.

So, if your goods are faulty and don’t do what they're supposed to, or don’t match the description given, you have the same consumer rights under the Consumer Rights Act (which replaces the Sale of Goods Act from 1 October 2015) as you have when buying in store.

Any terms and conditions that say you must cover the cost of returning an item wouldn’t apply where the goods being returned are faulty.

The heading only mentions faulty goods, and in this case they're not what I'd think of as "faulty". Para 2 does seem to cover the "not as described" scenario when it says "..., or don't match the description given, ...", but then the final para -- which specifically talks about return costs -- again only mentions faulty goods and not the "as described" aspect.

So this situation seems to fall between the cracks somewhat, and I'm not sure how to reply to yesterday's message. I'm grateful they've agreed to accept the return when presumably) they didn't have to, but does that non-returnable clause mean I need to return them at all? I only asked/offered as it seemed the right thing to do, given I wouldn't use the peanuts, haven't opened them and have sent photos. (I ordered another 5kg of splits from elsewhere instead, which have cost more.)

The seller has now added a bullet point to the top description saying "Please be away [sic] this comes with a mixture of whole and split peanuts," but this wasn't there when I ordered and paid for the product, and was only added after I contacted them. It also hasn't been added to the Product Description section further down the page. The clause about the choking danger of whole peanuts remains the same in the top description and (with slightly different wording) it's also still in the Product Description further down ("during the breeding season we recommend only feeding the split or broken peanuts to reduce the risk of a choking hazard for hatchlings and young birds"). The overall item heading/title is still "Split and Blanched Peanuts".

I'm afraid I'm just not au fait with returns and where I stand -- might be hard to believe but I've never actually returned anything before from an online transaction!

Thanks for assistance.

Brie

I would lodge a bad review with the seller if that's possible.  And not bother to return the item as too much of a faff.  Take out any frustration by banging repeatedly on the bag of nuts to break them down to a better size.  If you have a soil sieve for the garden that might help you ensure that there are no whole nuts left.

Keep_pedalling

Peanuts cannot be extracted whole from a peanut feeder so I really don’t see what the problem is.  Peanuts should not be be provided loose for the birds even a split peanut is too big for hatchlings and should always be in a mesh feeder. 

km1500

I would second the above - tap gently with a hammer or similar to break them.up

tightauldgit

Your rights are fairly clear I think - the item arrived and is not as described and therefore you have the right to reject it and the seller has to pay the return shipping. That's the Consumer Rights Act and nothing that amazon or the seller put as caveats can reduce that right. It's the same as if it was 'faulty', you have the same rights. 

If it was just a change of mind then you'd have to pay the return postage and they 'may' be able to say that it's food and non-returnable (although even then I'd challenge that). However in the case where it's not as described then they're 'non-returnable' statement means absolutely nothing.  

Whether you think it's worth the faff to enforce your rights is up to you. 

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

OP just open an A-Z claim for the order due to it not matching the description, if you are unsure how use Amazon chat.

Ignore the bit about no returns, it doesn't apply any way, Amazon have added that to many pages where the product isn't exempt from the right to cancel. 

Alderbank

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

OP just open an A-Z claim for the order due to it not matching the description, if you are unsure how use Amazon chat.

Ignore the bit about no returns, it doesn't apply any way, Amazon have added that to many pages where the product isn't exempt from the right to cancel. 

I agree with this good advice.

Amazon are a bit confusing, no returns doesn't mean no refunds. It just means they don't want the bother of getting the item back.

On the small number of times when I have had a problem with a (low cost) item from Amazon the seller has either refunded immediately or sent out another item. When asked they have always said just keep or dispose of the faulty one.

Yord51

I do fret over these kinds of situations, so many thanks to everyone for the comments.

Brie said:

I would lodge a bad review with the seller if that's possible.  And not bother to return the item as too much of a faff.  Take out any frustration by banging repeatedly on the bag of nuts to break them down to a better size.  If you have a soil sieve for the garden that might help you ensure that there are no whole nuts left.

km1500 said:

I would second the above - tap gently with a hammer or similar to break them.up

I considered simply leaving a bad review, but didn't feel it was fair without trying to resolve it first with the seller. They have responded promptly so far, and depending how it's taken on from here, bearing everyone's comments in mind, there could still be a reasonable outcome. And I could break up the peanuts myself, yes, but shouldn't be in that situation -- the item was misdescribed.

Keep_pedalling said:

Peanuts cannot be extracted whole from a peanut feeder so I really don’t see what the problem is.  Peanuts should not be be provided loose for the birds even a split peanut is too big for hatchlings and should always be in a mesh feeder. 

Thank you.

tightauldgit said:

Your rights are fairly clear I think - the item arrived and is not as described and therefore you have the right to reject it and the seller has to pay the return shipping. That's the Consumer Rights Act and nothing that amazon or the seller put as caveats can reduce that right. It's the same as if it was 'faulty', you have the same rights. 

If it was just a change of mind then you'd have to pay the return postage and they 'may' be able to say that it's food and non-returnable (although even then I'd challenge that). However in the case where it's not as described then they're 'non-returnable' statement means absolutely nothing.  

Whether you think it's worth the faff to enforce your rights is up to you. 

Reassuring on not being liable for return postage -- that's really what I wasn't sure about, but can now make the point.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

OP just open an A-Z claim for the order due to it not matching the description, if you are unsure how use Amazon chat.

Ignore the bit about no returns, it doesn't apply any way, Amazon have added that to many pages where the product isn't exempt from the right to cancel. 

I didn't know what an A-Z claim was but have now looked up the page (sorry, MSE won't allow me to post a link yet as a newbie -- actually I'm not, but it had been a very long while since I used the account and it wasn't recognised, so I've had to start from scratch again). Amazon says I must first contact the merchant to try and resolve the issue, and also that in the case of something materially different this should be within 14 days of receipt -- well, I have done/am doing that, and in fairness feel I should see how they respond to the issue of return postage before moving to an A-Z.

However, under the section "When do I use the "Order contained damaged/defective/incorrect items" reason while filing an Amazon Pay A-Z Guarantee claim?", again, as I seem to have found everywhere else, nothing's specified about who pays for return postage. But, as tightauldgit has advised above, if they should cover it because the goods were misdescribed, that's the line I'll take.

Alderbank said:

I agree with this good advice.

Amazon are a bit confusing, no returns doesn't mean no refunds. It just means they don't want the bother of getting the item back.

On the small number of times when I have had a problem with a (low cost) item from Amazon the seller has either refunded immediately or sent out another item. When asked they have always said just keep or dispose of the faulty one.

I too had an instance, quite recently, where I spoke to Amazon who told me to retain goods but issued a full refund nonetheless. In the circumstances of what went wrong with that particular order, I felt it was fair -- but it came from Amazon, not a seller, so no to-ing or fro-ing with another party. 

Overall, and trying to be fair-minded, I was hung up partly on the fact that because of the caveat (not knowing till now it didn't really count for much), it was me who asked the seller if the order could be returned, and therefore naively felt they were doing me a bit of a favour by saying they'd take it back -- I'd realised the "not as described" fact was important but, because of the caveat, didn't fully realise it evidently trumps everything else.

It also concerned me that "checking" has been mentioned both times they've responded. Frst when asking for a photo -- and I sent two in response -- then Saturday's message saying as soon as the nuts arrived back and "been checked" they would refund. I inferred, quite possibly groundlessly, that they could disagree with my assessment that the majority of contents were whole nuts rather than splits.

I think the photos should have spoken for themselves, but (to be forearmed) could I just ask here if it would be irrelevant whether the composition was, say, 75/80% whole nuts or as little as, say, 10%? -- it would still be misdescribed if not 100% splits? 

Thanks again for all your help.

Alderbank

Yord51 said:

Alderbank said:

I agree with this good advice.

Amazon are a bit confusing, no returns doesn't mean no refunds. It just means they don't want the bother of getting the item back.

On the small number of times when I have had a problem with a (low cost) item from Amazon the seller has either refunded immediately or sent out another item. When asked they have always said just keep or dispose of the faulty one.

I too had an instance, quite recently, where I spoke to Amazon who told me to retain goods but issued a full refund nonetheless. In the circumstances of what went wrong with that particular order, I felt it was fair -- but it came from Amazon, not a seller, so no to-ing or fro-ing with another party. 

The examples I gave were all third-party sellers.

bris

Use a wooden spatula and give them a bashing, put them in the feeder and get over it, the birds dont care.