What happens to the original paper will after probate?

boingy

As title says really. Does the original paper will get filed somewhere? Who scans it to create the electronic copy that is available at the gov.uk site? 

I've bought the electronic copy but there is a page missing so I'd like to find out if the page is available in paper form. I've submitted a query to the regional probate office that handled it but do they keep the original? Probate was granted six years ago.

JGB1955

The original is held by HMCTS.  

boingy

JGB1955 said:

The original is held by HMCTS.  

Thanks. The trouble is that HMCTS is not in one place. HMCTS Wills Helpdesk said that the file is "how they received it via the issuing probate registry" who I assume to be the regional probate office but they are not proving to be very responsive at present. Do they file the paper copy and keep it forever?

SiliconChip

Are you the person who submitted the Will with the probate application (or the person responsible for it being submitted)?

If so, do you have a certified copy of the Will that contains the missing page? Or even an uncertified copy?

If not, how do you know that a page is missing at all, is there an obvious gap in the electronic version? Have you asked the person who did submit it whether they have a copy, or if they have an explanation for the missing page?

Was the Will drawn up by a solicitor? They may still have their office copy, although they may have disposed of it in the intervening 6 years.

boingy

It's my dad's will. The paper will was stored with a solicitor who acted as executor upon his death. Myself, my mum and my brother all have electronic copies which are missing the same page. The pages are numbered and one is missing. The paragraphs are numbered and there is one and a half sub-sections missing. The solicitor's electronic copy is the same and they no longer hold the paper original because it was sent to the probate registry. The solicitor is "requesting the original file" and has been for some days now. I don't know who they are requesting it from or how long it will take but I expect the original file will also be missing the page because this feels like an error that occurred when the paper copy was scanned. It's not clear who scanned it or where the paper copy is now, hence my question.

BooJewels

The digital scan is done by HMCTS - originally they did them in-house when received, but they're now done by an external company - that's where they land when you post them in.

The Granting of Probate is to declare that the Will has been proved.  So in theory, Probate shouldn't be granted, if there are clearly missing bits from the Will when received. When the officer reviews the Will, they should raise a query for an error of that nature.  It's an odd coincidence that all copies seem to be missing the same bit - suggestive that it went to HMCTS in that state.   It's why they tell you not to remove and seals or staples if you copy it before sending it in.

I don't think the HMCTS officers actually see the paper Will, just the scan. 

poppystar

If this was six years ago and the solicitor executed the Will then I imagine they are requesting the original file from their own long term storage, wherever that is held. This can take a while. As they would not have been able to complete their executor duties without the whole Will then they must have it in their files. The alternative would be that they and the Probate office failed to notice a missing page which seems very unlikely. 

Is there a reason why you need it at this stage? Do you believe there was a problem with how the Will was executed? 

boingy

poppystar said:

The alternative would be that they and the Probate office failed to notice a missing page which seems very unlikely. 

I think the most likely cause is that whoever scanned it has missed out a page and not noticed. All the electronic copies are the same. I guess it's also possible that the paper original has always been missing that page. I'd hope that someone would have noticed that but maybe not. So the key is to find out if the paper original still exists and where it currently resides.

poppystar said:

Is there a reason why you need it at this stage? Do you believe there was a problem with how the Will was executed? 

The will is done and dusted, executed and put to bed. However, the will defined and created a discretionary trust of which I'm a trustee. So I'd really like to have a copy of that missing page. 

The solicitor is definitely being noncommittal at present, presumably because they are worried that it might be their !!!!!!-up. 

BooJewels said:

The digital scan is done by HMCTS - originally they did them in-house when received, but they're now done by an external company 

Do you know what happens to it after they have scanned it? 

BooJewels

I'm a smidge confused on the timeline - you say all the digital copies are missing the same page - where were these copies originated - have they all been downloaded from the Gov Web site since Probate was granted - or did the solicitor distribute them around the time of death - or a mixture of both?

I presume the paper wills go into some Government archive - they'd have to keep them for precisely this sort of scenario - but I don't know specifically - you'd have to start at HMCTS. 

There are stories in circulation that when the new external company started scanning wills they were only scanning one side of the paper, not realising that many were double sided - and they had to go back and redo them all, causing delays. 

One way or another, someone has stuffed up - potentially more than one party.  

boingy

BooJewels said:

I'm a smidge confused on the timeline - you say all the digital copies are missing the same page - where were these copies originated - have they all been downloaded from the Gov Web site since Probate was granted - or did the solicitor distribute them around the time of death - or a mixture of both?

I was given a copy of the Final Administration Accounts by the solicitor about 3 months after probate was granted in 2017 which included a printed copy of the will, missing the same page. Myself, my brother and my mum were sent a PDF copy of the will at about the same time, all missing the same page. None of us noticed. We're now wanting to make some changes to the trust defined by the will and we've noticed the omission. Last week I paid to get a PDF copy of the will from HMCTS and it is missing the same page. The help contact on the HMCTS page said:

We have checked the copy of the will against the copy we hold.
It looks like this is how we have received it via the issuing probate registry.
We would advise you to contact them to see why this page is missing.

So I've submitted a query to the regional probate office and I await their reply but I'm not sure whether they are the right people to ask. I was hoping someone on this forum would know for sure where the paper original ends up (hopefully not the shredder!)

BooJewels

The information in the public domain is vague as to what happens to the original wills "the Probate registry retain the original" etc.

I suppose there are 2 (perhaps more) levels to this - firstly, you just need to know what that missing page says - the solicitor should be able to produce a draft version from their computers or files or maybe the draft your father was sent for approval might still be in his papers. 

But if he signed the will with that page missing (it should be collated and stapled or bound before being signed) - does it potentially invalidate the trust or raise some other potential problem?  And if the solicitor sent it off with a page missing, they made an error and then HMCTS didn't pick up on it either.