Fraud by buyer/Ombudsman

soolin

IftiBashir said:

How was the buyer able to return the item via eBay after several months??
I thought cases could only be open within 30 days of receiving the item??

That’s why I wanted to know which dispute was opened. An INR is defended by proof of delivery, a claim for fraud is defended with proof of posting to address supplied. Even then the rules are slightly different depending on whether it was managed payments or not. 

vacheron

martindow said:

Before you think about legal action you need to quantify your loss.  Like others above I am not sure there is any apart from the postage cost if this item is still usable.  Was it second hand when you sold it?  If so its value has probably not changed appreciably.

You will have to pay a fee to open a claim and it is not worthwhile if there is doubt about the outcome.  In any case 'winning' can be only the start of the saga of trying to get any money paid back.

Incidentally does crypto mining stillmake financial sense at the moment with high electricity prices?

As the item in question was probably a headless GPU, or other kind of mining cluster / rig, these have seriously depreciated in value since crypto mining became less profitable, and this, coupled with the deluge of ex-mining hardware onto the market over the last few months means that the OP will probably not realise anything close to the amount that it was origianlly sold for if it was re-sold, despite it having no particular signs of "wear" or "degradation". 

To me it was a gamble made by the seller that didn't pay off and is therefore more akin to someone buying shares, then if the market price falls, just posting the certificates back to the seller who are then forced by their trading platform to refund the full original price paid to the buyer, and I feel that any legal argument which may have to be made in the future should draw similar comparisons. 

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

ebw1969 said:

Thanks both it was an item used to mine crypto and after months of possible use they decided to return presumably as they hadn't got the return they wanted on it. 
We did not say we would accept return but Ebay released our address and it got sent back to us anyway. His bank refunded him and apparently our issue is with their decision but we don't know who they are. 
It's so frustrating as many of the people we have dealt with on the way honestly don't understand the crypto market and therefore why this is so sneaky the buyer had the item months. 

This sounds as if it was a business transaction OP?

If it was did you provide the buyer with

(l)where a right to cancel exists, the conditions, time limit and procedures for exercising that right in accordance with regulations 27 to 38;

If not the cancellation period is 1 year and 14 days so they'd have the right to cancel in which case I'd let it go.

If you did, or you are a genuine private seller, then resell the item and issue small claims for the difference in sale price plus any fees associated with the chargeback. 

There's no recourse via eBay or the bank, very rare for such issues to occur but it's simply a part of selling on eBay that you have to accept, frustrating but selling (and life in general) is easier if you can get past that and accept there will be ups and there will be downs  

Just as an after thought, the buyer probably wasn't acting as a consumer so you can scratch the part in bold and focus on reselling and then assessing your loses vs the time of chasing them via small claims  

ebw1969

soolin said:

What sort of chargeback was it and was this u Dee PayPal or managed payments? 

It was a standard individual seller ebay sale using PayPal 

ebw1969

vacheron said:

martindow said:

Before you think about legal action you need to quantify your loss.  Like others above I am not sure there is any apart from the postage cost if this item is still usable.  Was it second hand when you sold it?  If so its value has probably not changed appreciably.

You will have to pay a fee to open a claim and it is not worthwhile if there is doubt about the outcome.  In any case 'winning' can be only the start of the saga of trying to get any money paid back.

Incidentally does crypto mining stillmake financial sense at the moment with high electricity prices?

As the item in question was probably a headless GPU, or other kind of mining cluster / rig, these have seriously depreciated in value since crypto mining became less profitable, and this, coupled with the deluge of ex-mining hardware onto the market over the last few months means that the OP will probably not realise anything close to the amount that it was origianlly sold for if it was re-sold, despite it having no particular signs of "wear" or "degradation". 

To me it was a gamble made by the seller that didn't pay off and is therefore more akin to someone buying shares, then if the market price falls, just posting the certificates back to the seller who are then forced by their trading platform to refund the full original price paid to the buyer, and I feel that any legal argument which may have to be made in the future should draw similar comparisons. 

I've read this response a few times and am a little confused (maybe the heat!). The seller sold an item. The item didn't bring the return the buyer wanted so he returned it. Surely the comparison is the buyer attempting to get money back on shares or am I just confused 

ebw1969

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

ebw1969 said:

Thanks both it was an item used to mine crypto and after months of possible use they decided to return presumably as they hadn't got the return they wanted on it. 
We did not say we would accept return but Ebay released our address and it got sent back to us anyway. His bank refunded him and apparently our issue is with their decision but we don't know who they are. 
It's so frustrating as many of the people we have dealt with on the way honestly don't understand the crypto market and therefore why this is so sneaky the buyer had the item months. 

This sounds as if it was a business transaction OP?

If it was did you provide the buyer with

(l)where a right to cancel exists, the conditions, time limit and procedures for exercising that right in accordance with regulations 27 to 38;

If not the cancellation period is 1 year and 14 days so they'd have the right to cancel in which case I'd let it go.

If you did, or you are a genuine private seller, then resell the item and issue small claims for the difference in sale price plus any fees associated with the chargeback. 

There's no recourse via eBay or the bank, very rare for such issues to occur but it's simply a part of selling on eBay that you have to accept, frustrating but selling (and life in general) is easier if you can get past that and accept there will be ups and there will be downs  

Just as an after thought, the buyer probably wasn't acting as a consumer so you can scratch the part in bold and focus on reselling and then assessing your loses vs the time of chasing them via small claims  

Definitely not a business seller and us selling it on would obviously not get the return. It's just so wrong that people can return an item they have been able to earn money from for months just because months down the line there was a temporary blip in third party ability to provide mining capabilities. In the months before this blip it was able to mine as it is again now.
Like me buying a TV, Sky having no service for a week for whatever reason and me trying to return the TV... 

soolin

ebw1969 said:

soolin said:

What sort of chargeback was it and was this u Dee PayPal or managed payments? 

It was a standard individual seller ebay sale using PayPal 

No, what sort of chargeback was it, INR or one of fraud? 

tightauldgit

ebw1969 said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

ebw1969 said:

Thanks both it was an item used to mine crypto and after months of possible use they decided to return presumably as they hadn't got the return they wanted on it. 
We did not say we would accept return but Ebay released our address and it got sent back to us anyway. His bank refunded him and apparently our issue is with their decision but we don't know who they are. 
It's so frustrating as many of the people we have dealt with on the way honestly don't understand the crypto market and therefore why this is so sneaky the buyer had the item months. 

This sounds as if it was a business transaction OP?

If it was did you provide the buyer with

(l)where a right to cancel exists, the conditions, time limit and procedures for exercising that right in accordance with regulations 27 to 38;

If not the cancellation period is 1 year and 14 days so they'd have the right to cancel in which case I'd let it go.

If you did, or you are a genuine private seller, then resell the item and issue small claims for the difference in sale price plus any fees associated with the chargeback. 

There's no recourse via eBay or the bank, very rare for such issues to occur but it's simply a part of selling on eBay that you have to accept, frustrating but selling (and life in general) is easier if you can get past that and accept there will be ups and there will be downs  

Just as an after thought, the buyer probably wasn't acting as a consumer so you can scratch the part in bold and focus on reselling and then assessing your loses vs the time of chasing them via small claims  

Definitely not a business seller and us selling it on would obviously not get the return. It's just so wrong that people can return an item they have been able to earn money from for months just because months down the line there was a temporary blip in third party ability to provide mining capabilities. In the months before this blip it was able to mine as it is again now.
Like me buying a TV, Sky having no service for a week for whatever reason and me trying to return the TV... 

I think the short answer is that generally they can't do what youve described so we are curious how it's occurred and need you to fill in the blanks for us. 

tightauldgit

soolin said:

ebw1969 said:

soolin said:

What sort of chargeback was it and was this u Dee PayPal or managed payments? 

It was a standard individual seller ebay sale using PayPal 

No, what sort of chargeback was it, INR or one of fraud? 

Hopefully OP will provide more info if they have it but trying to parse what they've said it seems bank has charged back but they haven't seen any info on the chargeback? 

Not sure what SOP with chargebacks and eBay is should they contact the seller and ask them for their response? If they haven't does OP have a claim against eBay?

In managed payments the chargeback will be against eBay rather than OP so I wonder if there is some break down in Comms there. 

soolin

tightauldgit said:

soolin said:

ebw1969 said:

soolin said:

What sort of chargeback was it and was this u Dee PayPal or managed payments? 

It was a standard individual seller ebay sale using PayPal 

No, what sort of chargeback was it, INR or one of fraud? 

Hopefully OP will provide more info if they have it but trying to parse what they've said it seems bank has charged back but they haven't seen any info on the chargeback? 

Not sure what SOP with chargebacks and eBay is should they contact the seller and ask them for their response? If they haven't does OP have a claim against eBay?

In managed payments the chargeback will be against eBay rather than OP so I wonder if there is some break down in Comms there. 

Any claim would go back to the seller via ebay, they do not just repay the buyer without asking for input from seller. The type of  claim is important, if buyer opened an INR then seller can defend it with proof of delivery, a chargeback for fraud is defended with proof of postage. A claim for SNAD after a certain period can be defended (not easily admittedly) by arguing that the time period is too long for item to have been significantly not as described on arrival and not noticed. 

We cannot advise with any great certainty until we know what claim was made, it sounds like an SNAD and perhaps as a total guess buyer has stated that claims made as to the profitability of product were false and/or overstated. That is however just a guess and we would need to know more to advise correctly.