Advice - Parents and care fees... options?

HappyHarry

lisyloo said:

HappyHarry said:

Whilst I am not one that encourages trying to avoid care fees there are options here.

The property is only in your father’s name. If something were to happen to your father, then the property will be passed to the beneficiaries mentioned in his will. Do you know what this says, and is it what you all want?

It is not currently your mother’s property, and if it never has been and never will be then the Local Authority have no right to demand that this property is sold to pay for your mother’s care. 

If your father requires care, then this is very different, as he does own a property that could be sold to fund his care needs (although if your mother were still living at the property then it should be ignored as an asset).

Are you sure that he can cut out a dependent adult?

Good question - I believe that cutting someone out of a will is simple with a new will, but could be challenged by the beneficiary that loses out. 

In this situation, it is possible that the mother may not challenge such a will, and then the question is whether or not the Local Authority could do so on behalf of the mother, potentially without her approval.

if the will is going to be rewritten, then the solicitors advice at this point would be invaluable.

This would be potentially different in  Scotland where dependants have much stronger rights with regard to wills.

Mark_H_3

LHW99 said:

Do they both have LPA's in place? If they have mental capacity this should be done, as once capacity is lost things get more expensive and entail more admin as you would have to deal with the Court of Protection.

Doing this now.  Thanks for the reply

elsien

Mark_H_3 said:

Hi all,

Based on the following, what should we do with the house to protect assets from care fees?

• My parents have a small 3 bed terraced house (circa £250k), so IHT is not an issue.
• My Mother is classed as severely disabled - paralysed down one side due to two cerebral embolisms when young
• My mother receives disibility allowance.
• The house is in my father's name only 
• My father is 82 and my mother is 80
• My mother will most likely outlive my father, as she is in better health, despite the above.
• My mother will not be able to live on her own, without care.  If she falls, and does regularly, she cannot get up, and needs general day to day help, which my father does now, as her designated carer.

If my father dies first, my mother will need some sort of care, not sure what that would be... care home, or home visits multiple times per day, with 24 hours call out which she has now, via a home line system.  

If my father transfers the house into my name now, will the Local Authority (LA) deem that we have done it to avoid care home fees, and most likely force us to sell the house and use it as part of the estate to pay care home fees.

If my father leaves the house to me (with my mothers consent) in his will, can the LA prevent that and use that as an asset if she has to go into care home?

My understanding is that getting into a care home is not so straightforward these days, as there is a shortage and very expensive.  I believe the LA prefers you to stay in your own home, with care...?

I would appreciate any advice/guidance.

Many thanks,
Jane

Given that’s exactly what you will have done, it would be a completely accurate presumption for the local authority to make. 

With regards to your other question about care at home, that is the starting point. Because most people do  prefer to stay in their own home as long as possible.

The point at which becomes difficult is when people need a level of care that can’t be managed safely. So although my grandmother still had her faculties, she needed to move into a care home when she lost both her sight and her mobility and couldn’t afford to pay for two carers day and night.
 Local authority will generally pay up to four calls a day for people who aren’t self funded. If you need to greater than that that’s when care homes start to come into the picture. 

If your mother’s  needs were primarily health related then she may qualify for health funding which would mean her care would be free. Having a disability and/or dementia in itself is not enough to meet that criteria. People’s needs have to be complex to be funded and it is very difficult to get.

I agree with the other people on here. Money gives people choices. Giving the house away removes those options.
Whoever’s name the house is in, after a marriage the length of theirs, it would be considered a marital assets, and most likely belong 50-50 to each of them and would be unfair on your mother to try to cut her share out for the sake of a potential inheritance. 

I have had a similar discussion with my mother and told her that the money she has worked hard for all her life is absolutely going to give her the best quality of care as and when she ever needs it. Anything else is not up for debate.

Mark_H_3

elsien said:

I agree with the other people on here. Money gives people choices. Giving the house away removes those options.
Whoever’s name the house is in, after a marriage the length of theirs, it would be considered a marital assets, and most likely belong 50-50 to each of them and would be unfair on your mother to try to cut her share out for the sake of a potential inheritance. 

I have had a similar discussion with my mother and told her that the money she has worked hard for all her life is absolutely going to give her the best quality of care as and when she ever needs it. Anything else is not up for debate.

It's not about inheritance - as all assets are theirs.  Again, its about them having choices.

elsien

The local authority are not in the business of forcing people to go into care homes who don’t want to be there.
When it does happen, and it does, then it tends to be because the person has lost capacity around their care and support needs, don’t understand the risks and aren’t safe with the level of care that can be provided at home. People who are self funders can pay for extra support; those that aren’t lose their options very quickly. If your mum can’t manage with 4 calls a day, and family between times, then residential care may be the way that she has to go. That is when she will really need the choices, to find somewhere that suits her. Not all local authority funded places are bad, but the cheap ones do tend more towards being the ones where basic care needs are met but there is little over and above that. I say that from the perspective of someone whose job involves going in and out of a lot of care homes.

Although strictly speaking, it’s not necessarily a choice between home and the care home. There is always the housing with care option which is kind of an intermediate between the two. Again that depends on the level of people’s needs.  And some people don’t want it if they’ve got their own home because they’d much rather be at home and can’t conceive of selling up to live elsewhere. 

xylophone

A husband is the sole owner of a property.

It is true that he could leave the family home to his son/daughter but it seems to me unlikely that a solicitor would advise this course of action.

What the solicitor might suggest is that the property is left to son/daughter but with a lifetime interest in possession to his wife.

https://techzone.abrdn.com/public/iht-est-plan/Tech-guide-IIP-trust-taxation

The OP's parents should consult a solicitor expert in wills and trusts.

https://www.step.org/about-step/public

Pat38493

I’m not sure if this was already discussed above, but am I not right in thinking that if one person from a couple has to go into a care home, the local authority cannot force them to sell the house if the other one is still living in it?

If so though, does that not also mean that having the house only on one partner’s name could actually be an issue - if the father went into a care home and the house is only in his name, does this mean the house can be forced to be sold?

Also as other posters have pointed out, under current UK law you are expected to use your own assets if you need to move into a care home, including your house if there is nobody else in there.  You cannot avoid this by giving the house away as this is classified as deliberate deprivation of assets.

Mark_H_3

For the avoidance of doubt, the questions were never about inheritance, as all assets are theirs and can be used however they see fit, to get the best care they can.  Our concern, was can they force my mother to sell her home and put her in a care home, where she has said numerous times, she does not want to go! We want her to retain the asset, that would hopefully giver her/us choices, to ensure the best for her!

Anyway, sifting through the negative replies, I feel a few of you on here have helped to clarify - many thanks for taking the time.

Grumpy_chap

Mark_H_3 said:

For the avoidance of doubt, the questions were never about inheritance, as all assets are theirs and can be used however they see fit, to get the best care they can.  Our concern, was can they force my mother to sell her home and put her in a care home, where she has said numerous times, she does not want to go! We wanted her to retain the asset, that would hopefully giver her/us choices, to ensure the best for her!

Anyway, sifting through the negative replies, I feel a couple of you on here have helped to clarify - many thanks for taking the time.

The simplest thing here would seem to be for Dad's Will to simply leave everything to Mum.

AIUI, if Dad needs care before he passes, then the LA cannot force the sale of the house to fund his car all the while that Mum is living there.

If Dad passes before Mum (as you suggest is likely) and the Will left everything to Mum, then the house is secure to provide the best care that can be had for your Mum.  Ideally care at home, as that is her wish.  If there comes a point where that care at home is not practical, then selling the house to fund the best care and give Mum options may be the best route.

Keep_pedalling

Mark_H_3 said:

My mother does not want to go in home, and we will do everything we can to ensure that does not happen.  Hopefully via home care etc. My concern is that as soon as the LA get involved they dictate what that care looks like.  My parents don't have a lot of money, so won't be able to contribute, other than the only asset they have, which is their house.  I want to make sure they can't force her to sell the house and then put her in a LA care home.  Having her stay at home and them supporting would be the best option.... hence wanting to protect the house for her.  All assets are theirs and they can spend it however they want.  They have asked me to ask the question.... thanks

I think you are going about this the wrong way. The best way of of maintaining control of your care is to be able to self fund not have no major assets. If your mother inherits the major matrimonial asset then she has the control. Yes, if the home is transferred to you you could use it to fund her care but there are downsides and risks . The major risk is if something happens to you such as pre-deceasing your parents, getting divorced or going bankrupt.

You also may face a CGT liability when selling. What happens if your mother dies first and your father is the one who needs care?

Unfortunately with out other assets to pay for something like live in carers it does not matter who owns the house no LA will fund it and the only option if 4 brief daily career visits is required will be residential care.