How complicated is probate and executorship for a surviving spouse?

boingy

I realise that's a bit of an open-ended question.

Background:

My wife and I are about to make mirror wills. We have no kids, no debts, and own the house jointly. Today the house and our savings add up to about 600K. In addition we both have personal pensions which I think stay outside of the estate but total around £400K.

We've already decided that when the second of us dies we'll use a solicitor as executor but we're not sure whether to do this when the first of us dies, because the will is just going to say that the survivor gets everything. However, I think it will require probate because there will most likely be some sole savings accounts with significant amounts in them.

What I'd like to get a feel for is how much hassle and how complicated the process following that first death might be for the surviving spouse. 

Flugelhorn

not complicated if you have access to all the information. don't make the mistake of adding a solicitor as exec as then you are stuck with them even if you can manage on your own. you can always get a solicitor to help if you find it too much  but they don't need to be exec

Keep_pedalling

On the first death the survivor will be dealing with an exempt estate, so no IHT return to do and depending on what assets are held at the time of death you may even be able to get away without the need to do probate.

You could make each other executors and appoint a solicitor as back-up so they would only be involved on the second death or the incapacity of the surfing spouse. You don’t mention who inherits on the second death but you could also make them executors unless they are currently minors.

The pensions fall out of your estate so will not be covered by your will so you both need to make sure your expression of wishes is up to date. Hopefully those by the time of your death there wound be much left in them as you would have spent it on yourselves.

From the info you have given here you both have very simple estates, but on a previous thread you talk about a family trust, are you a beneficiary of that trust? If you are it might make things a little more complicated.

Sarahspangles

boingy said:

However, I think it will require probate because there will most likely be some sole savings accounts with significant amounts in them.

What I'd like to get a feel for is how much hassle and how complicated the process following that first death might be for the surviving spouse. 

It’s not complicated but I think ideally you would set things up so that there’s no immediate urgency to tackle paperwork, at a time you’re grieving. If there is plenty of money in a joint account and some joint savings then probate and transferring assets, utility accounts etc can wait.

Is there someone obvious who would help the survivor? In a scenario where someone is getting a bit frail and then has the shock of bereavement it might be useful to have an LPA in place so that person can take on some of the actions.

Suffolksue

I found my late husbands probate fairly straightforward 
whatever yo do don’t name a solicitor, 
if they are named executor then they are answerable to no one 

BooJewels

I'd echo what others have already said - as a widow, I too have this experience.  It can be straight forward depending on how your finances are arranged.  Most of our assets were in joint names, so it was only really a case of informing their bereavement departments and them adjusting the names on accounts etc. - I didn't need Probate, as we had nothing that required it. 

The thing that was the most work was his various pensions - no problems, but the more cash was involved, the more hoops they make you jump through to get it.  But he had filled out the expression of wishes and did ring each pension provider towards the end to ensure those were in place and to ensure they knew what outcome he wanted.

What did prove helpful was ensuring that I was named on accounts that I'd need to access - before and after his death - like his mobile phone bill, car insurance and utilities - he variously either put my name on the account, or sent a letter of authority.  He knew he might reach the stage where he wouldn't be well enough to deal with things himself.  Ideally, we should have done an LPA, but they were taking in excess of 20 weeks at the time and we were running out of time.  So we did the poor man's version and set as much up manually as we could, which definitely helped.

So don't just think about your Wills, also think about how you'd manage if one of you is unable to manage their own affairs - both LPAs for both of you - but ensure enough money is in joint funds to survive a few months and that information is available to deal with everything.  Having been Attorney for family members and then executor several times, being organised is a great gift you can leave them.  My son's going to have a bit of a mess to unravel, but at least I'm keeping good notes for him.

boingy

Thanks all. Some really good information there and it's helping me formulate a plan in my mind.

To address a few of the points.

Beneficiaries/executors.

To put it bluntly we don't really have anyone to leave stuff to on the second death. We have no kids and our siblings are all older than us so the estate will be split between a few charities and some nieces and nephews that we barely know. There is no obvious executor amongst them. We have plenty of friends, a few of whom would be up to the job, but we're all of a similar age and I don't really want to burden anyone with the task, especially as we all hope to be ancient and crusty before any of this happens. We're happy for solicitors to sort everything after the second death at whatever the cost, because, hey, we're gone.

Joint savings.

Maybe I'll look at keeping more of our savings in joint accounts. The only reason that they are not like that already is because we bounce money around to get the best interest rates and that is harder, slower and sometimes not even possible with joint accounts. 

The family trust (actually three trusts).

I was assuming that the trust stuff will be done and dusted well before one of us dies but it's a darned good point that I need to consider what happens if it isn't. The trusts are a convoluted and expensive way for my brother and I to inherit our parents estate after my mum goes. I'm a trustee and a beneficiary of them but, off topic, it's not something I ever wanted.  I think my parents were badly advised and I don't believe it's going to have the beneficial effect that they intended but it's there. It costs us money every time someone blinks and I resent that more than I should. It's making me scowl even now....

Of course, in an ideal world we wouldn't need a will. We'd spend our last penny with our last breath then expire together peacefully and painlessly.

Keep_pedalling

boingy said:

Thanks all. Some really good information there and it's helping me formulate a plan in my mind.

To address a few of the points.

Beneficiaries/executors.

To put it bluntly we don't really have anyone to leave stuff to on the second death. We have no kids and our siblings are all older than us so the estate will be split between a few charities and some nieces and nephews that we barely know. There is no obvious executor amongst them. We have plenty of friends, a few of whom would be up to the job, but we're all of a similar age and I don't really want to burden anyone with the task, especially as we all hope to be ancient and crusty before any of this happens. We're happy for solicitors to sort everything after the second death at whatever the cost, because, hey, we're gone.

In that case I would appoint a solicitor as a back-up executor.

Joint savings.

Maybe I'll look at keeping more of our savings in joint accounts. The only reason that they are not like that already is because we bounce money around to get the best interest rates and that is harder, slower and sometimes not even possible with joint accounts. 

The problem with that is that neither of you can make use of your ISA allowance. Most of our savings are in S&S ISAs so we can’t avoid probate on the first death. Probate is not difficult to do for an exempt estate and it would cost us dearly to take those savings out of ISAs.

The family trust (actually three trusts).

I was assuming that the trust stuff will be done and dusted well before one of us dies but it's a darned good point that I need to consider what happens if it isn't. The trusts are a convoluted and expensive way for my brother and I to inherit our parents estate after my mum goes. I'm a trustee and a beneficiary of them but, off topic, it's not something I ever wanted.  I think my parents were badly advised and I don't believe it's going to have the beneficial effect that they intended but it's there. It costs us money every time someone blinks and I resent that more than I should. It's making me scowl even now....

Unfortunately there were (still are) a bunch of sharks earning fat fees from creating pointless trusts like this. 

Presumably you and your sibling can wind these trusts up on your mother’s death, but that will increase the size of your estate so may have IHT implications for your estate, although if the bulk of your estate is going to charity that is not an option.

Of course, in an ideal world we wouldn't need a will. We'd spend our last penny with our last breath then expire together peacefully and painlessly.

If only we knew the date of our demise it would make financial planning much easier.

boingy

Keep_pedalling said:

If only we knew the date of our demise it would make financial planning much easier.

We can definitely agree on that. Not even ChatGPT seems to have the answer.

Sarahspangles

boingy said:

Keep_pedalling said:

If only we knew the date of our demise it would make financial planning much easier.

We can definitely agree on that. Not even ChatGPT seems to have the answer.

It’s when ChatGPT gives you a date you need to worry.

Jowwie

I use this. It has been 100% correct for me so far 

https://www.thecalculator.co/lifestyle/Death-Calculator-216.html