Noise through party wall

jonnydeppiwish!

janj1332 said:

jonnydeppiwish! said:

janj1332 said:

jonnydeppiwish! said:

You can but it’s a bit late. You’ll need plenty of cash to see it through I would have thought.

What sort of noise? 

What’s the family dynamic now compared to before it was bought? I mean an old lady compared to family with young kids is going to be significantly noisier.

Dog noise, TV noise, audible voices at anything above conversational level. It's not so much the frequency of the noise as the clarity. The walls now seem paper thin. That wasn't the case before. The lady who lived in the house before it was sold would often have large gatherings round and you wouldn't hear a thing. The issue I think is the way in which sound vibrations are traveling along/through the wall.

Okay, so from a single person to family living. You need to invest in sound proofing. Very little else will have changed, or get used to the noise associated with living attached to someone else’s house.

Yeah looked into the soundproofing route. Thought about speaking to the landlords as some work they've done on the party wall we feel would have required our notice or permission. Just wanted to know where we would stand legally if we asked them to make changes and they refused.

Unless you’re willing to go to court and be able to prove they’ve done any work on the party wall, then you’re unlikely to succeed.

As previous posters have stated, you need to do some sound proofing on your side of the wall. Probably a lot cheaper than the legal route as well!

MultiFuelBurner

On the other thread I believe someone mentioned raising your levels to what would be considered normal when your neighbours were in so they could get a sense of the issue.

A bit of "yes" that's what it's like for us as well 

To be honest in the good old days these sort of things used to get sorted out over the fence with neighbours and popping into each others house.

One reason why we would never consider anything but detached to live in.

stuhse

janj1332 said:

jonnydeppiwish! said:

janj1332 said:

jonnydeppiwish! said:

You can but it’s a bit late. You’ll need plenty of cash to see it through I would have thought.

What sort of noise? 

What’s the family dynamic now compared to before it was bought? I mean an old lady compared to family with young kids is going to be significantly noisier.

Dog noise, TV noise, audible voices at anything above conversational level. It's not so much the frequency of the noise as the clarity. The walls now seem paper thin. That wasn't the case before. The lady who lived in the house before it was sold would often have large gatherings round and you wouldn't hear a thing. The issue I think is the way in which sound vibrations are traveling along/through the wall.

Okay, so from a single person to family living. You need to invest in sound proofing. Very little else will have changed, or get used to the noise associated with living attached to someone else’s house.

Yeah looked into the soundproofing route. Thought about speaking to the landlords as some work they've done on the party wall we feel would have required our notice or permission. Just wanted to know where we would stand legally if we asked them to make changes and they refused.

Where do you think you would stand legally if your neighbour knocked on your door and asked you to make alterations to your property ?

Can you prove what was there before the alterations?  And what has changed ? Have you got noise level  readings before and after alterations.?  Have you got £4000 initial payment on account for solicitor  to start working on case at £250 plus vat per hour ? Have you got money for specialist surveyors at £80 plus vat per hour ?

My advice is forget it  , legal action is for the likes of pop stars and footballers, Switch some music on...you won't hear them if you don't sit in silence.  Save your money towards a detatched property down the line.

ThisIsWeird

This is a tough one, Jan.

I suspect you haven't a chance of obliging the LL to upgrade the insulation on the other side, unless you can nigh-on prove that the work they had carried out has contributed to the noise transmission. So that would leave insulating your side as the most likely remaining option - or moving.

To get anywhere with this, I suspect you'll need a specialist surveyor. They might be able to determine where/how the bulk of the sound is coming through, or they may determine it's a general noise transmission. 

I think an important factor could be (but not sure if it is) is that the voices you hear are both clear, and seemingly delivered at normal speaking volumes? Ie, most voices, having travelled through a solid wall, will have a degree of being 'muffled', more bassy. If the voices are clear and fairly crisp - making it very easy to follow conversations - that would 'suggest' an inadequate level of soundproofing. Ie, the issue is caused by the wall, and likely was caused by the renovation work. Ditto with voice volume - you can usually tell if it's a normal-volume conversation, or whether voices are raised, even if the latter is normal for these folk. Raised delivery usually has a different timbre, I think?

So, an experienced sound surveyor would, I hope, be able to provide a reasoned opinion on whether what is being heard is normal for this type of house. And hopefully be able to provide solutions.

Whether their determination of the likely cause can be so concrete as to enable you to take action against the LL, is unknown. But I think a surveyor must be your next step? You ain't going to get anywhere with this on your own, I don't think.

Meanwhile, for your peace of mind, and hopefully to also make a point, have BBC R3 or Spotify playing at a level that covers the noise from next door. Not in any malicious sense, of course, but just so that the sounds that bathe you are what you have chosen. If the neighb comes to your door about this - and it might be useful if they do - then invite them in to hear the normal volume your music is being played at.

janj1332

ThisIsWeird said:

I think an important factor could be (but not sure if it is) is that the voices you hear are both clear, and seemingly delivered at normal speaking volumes? Ie, most voices, having travelled through a solid wall, will have a degree of being 'muffled', more bassy. If the voices are clear and fairly crisp - making it very easy to follow conversations - that would 'suggest' an inadequate level of soundproofing. Ie, the issue is caused by the wall, and likely was caused by the renovation work. Ditto with voice volume - you can usually tell if it's a normal-volume conversation, or whether voices are raised, even if the latter is normal for these folk. Raised delivery usually has a different timbre, I think?

Hi. Yes, I've been in plenty of properties in which you can hear audible but muffled noise, but I've never experienced noise transference through a wall like it before. The noise we can hear now is clear. For example, by putting an ear close to the adjoining wall, conversations spoken at normal volume are easily followable, to the point where if someone is on the phone, we can make out what the person at the other end of the line is saying. Music lyrics are also audible.

The landlords did the renovation work themselves. They aren't time served builders, just a couple of enthusiastic DIY-ers who are having a crack at property development. 

janj1332

stuhse said:

janj1332 said:

jonnydeppiwish! said:

janj1332 said:

jonnydeppiwish! said:

You can but it’s a bit late. You’ll need plenty of cash to see it through I would have thought.

What sort of noise? 

What’s the family dynamic now compared to before it was bought? I mean an old lady compared to family with young kids is going to be significantly noisier.

Dog noise, TV noise, audible voices at anything above conversational level. It's not so much the frequency of the noise as the clarity. The walls now seem paper thin. That wasn't the case before. The lady who lived in the house before it was sold would often have large gatherings round and you wouldn't hear a thing. The issue I think is the way in which sound vibrations are traveling along/through the wall.

Okay, so from a single person to family living. You need to invest in sound proofing. Very little else will have changed, or get used to the noise associated with living attached to someone else’s house.

Yeah looked into the soundproofing route. Thought about speaking to the landlords as some work they've done on the party wall we feel would have required our notice or permission. Just wanted to know where we would stand legally if we asked them to make changes and they refused.

Where do you think you would stand legally if your neighbour knocked on your door and asked you to make alterations to your property ?

Can you prove what was there before the alterations?  And what has changed ? Have you got noise level  readings before and after alterations.?  Have you got £4000 initial payment on account for solicitor  to start working on case at £250 plus vat per hour ? Have you got money for specialist surveyors at £80 plus vat per hour ?

My advice is forget it  , legal action is for the likes of pop stars and footballers, Switch some music on...you won't hear them if you don't sit in silence.  Save your money towards a detatched property down the line.

Yeah, it would be nice to just forget it. But this issue is going to be a ongoing problem, irrespective of who lives in that house.Soundproofing is probably the way to go. Incidentally, there is photographic proof of the removal of the fireplaces in both the front and back room, and much of the noise from next door is coming through the chimney breasts. 

jonnydeppiwish!

janj1332 said:

stuhse said:

janj1332 said:

jonnydeppiwish! said:

janj1332 said:

jonnydeppiwish! said:

You can but it’s a bit late. You’ll need plenty of cash to see it through I would have thought.

What sort of noise? 

What’s the family dynamic now compared to before it was bought? I mean an old lady compared to family with young kids is going to be significantly noisier.

Dog noise, TV noise, audible voices at anything above conversational level. It's not so much the frequency of the noise as the clarity. The walls now seem paper thin. That wasn't the case before. The lady who lived in the house before it was sold would often have large gatherings round and you wouldn't hear a thing. The issue I think is the way in which sound vibrations are traveling along/through the wall.

Okay, so from a single person to family living. You need to invest in sound proofing. Very little else will have changed, or get used to the noise associated with living attached to someone else’s house.

Yeah looked into the soundproofing route. Thought about speaking to the landlords as some work they've done on the party wall we feel would have required our notice or permission. Just wanted to know where we would stand legally if we asked them to make changes and they refused.

Where do you think you would stand legally if your neighbour knocked on your door and asked you to make alterations to your property ?

Can you prove what was there before the alterations?  And what has changed ? Have you got noise level  readings before and after alterations.?  Have you got £4000 initial payment on account for solicitor  to start working on case at £250 plus vat per hour ? Have you got money for specialist surveyors at £80 plus vat per hour ?

My advice is forget it  , legal action is for the likes of pop stars and footballers, Switch some music on...you won't hear them if you don't sit in silence.  Save your money towards a detatched property down the line.

Yeah, it would be nice to just forget it. But this issue is going to be a ongoing problem, irrespective of who lives in that house.Soundproofing is probably the way to go. Incidentally, there is photographic proof of the removal of the fireplaces in both the front and back room, and much of the noise from next door is coming through the chimney breasts. 

Yes but that has been done and, tbh, there’s absolutely nothing you can do about it unless you want to spend thousands taking through civil court. Whereas you could just accept that a change in neighbours (especially family) is going to be noisier that you probably imagined.

Spend a grand and insulate from your side.

The removal of a chimney breast isn’t going to increase sound much - hard flooring will though.

janj1332

jonnydeppiwish! said:

janj1332 said:

stuhse said:

janj1332 said:

jonnydeppiwish! said:

janj1332 said:

jonnydeppiwish! said:

You can but it’s a bit late. You’ll need plenty of cash to see it through I would have thought.

What sort of noise? 

What’s the family dynamic now compared to before it was bought? I mean an old lady compared to family with young kids is going to be significantly noisier.

Dog noise, TV noise, audible voices at anything above conversational level. It's not so much the frequency of the noise as the clarity. The walls now seem paper thin. That wasn't the case before. The lady who lived in the house before it was sold would often have large gatherings round and you wouldn't hear a thing. The issue I think is the way in which sound vibrations are traveling along/through the wall.

Okay, so from a single person to family living. You need to invest in sound proofing. Very little else will have changed, or get used to the noise associated with living attached to someone else’s house.

Yeah looked into the soundproofing route. Thought about speaking to the landlords as some work they've done on the party wall we feel would have required our notice or permission. Just wanted to know where we would stand legally if we asked them to make changes and they refused.

Where do you think you would stand legally if your neighbour knocked on your door and asked you to make alterations to your property ?

Can you prove what was there before the alterations?  And what has changed ? Have you got noise level  readings before and after alterations.?  Have you got £4000 initial payment on account for solicitor  to start working on case at £250 plus vat per hour ? Have you got money for specialist surveyors at £80 plus vat per hour ?

My advice is forget it  , legal action is for the likes of pop stars and footballers, Switch some music on...you won't hear them if you don't sit in silence.  Save your money towards a detatched property down the line.

Yeah, it would be nice to just forget it. But this issue is going to be a ongoing problem, irrespective of who lives in that house.Soundproofing is probably the way to go. Incidentally, there is photographic proof of the removal of the fireplaces in both the front and back room, and much of the noise from next door is coming through the chimney breasts. 

Yes but that has been done and, tbh, there’s absolutely nothing you can do about it unless you want to spend thousands taking through civil court. Whereas you could just accept that a change in neighbours (especially family) is going to be noisier that you probably imagined.

Spend a grand and insulate from your side.

The removal of a chimney breast isn’t going to increase sound much - hard flooring will though.

Yes, taking everything into account, it seems like soundproofing is the most practical way forward.

MalMonroe

janj1332 said:

Hi 

This post is a continuation of a discussion I posted on here a while ago. Basically, a couple of years ago, 2 developers bought and renovated the house next door to ours (1920/30's semi detached), and since they've completed the work and found tenants the sound insulation/soundproofing between the houses is now almost non-existent. This has led to a bit of discord with the neighbours now occupying next door. The soundproofing wasn't an issue before they bought the house and did the work. We're also convinced that some of the work they've undertaken was structural (removal of fireplaces) and therefore falls under the Party Wall Act, in which case, we weren't notified before or during the work.

Has anyone on here had a situation similar to this, in which they weren't notified at any point about party wall work which has led to a dramatic increase in noise coming thorough the wall? And if so, what options would be available legally? I mean, these regulations exist for a reason, so what action is available in the event that a situation like this occurs?

All advice and suggestions greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

Hi, I'm just wondering if there are any regulations concerning the building/amending of party walls and whether the developers who did that work on the property next door had to get any council permission to do that work? And if they did, what did it specify. And if they did, was it checked on completion?

Do you think it may be worth asking your council about it? If the developers didn't do the job properly (sounds like they definitely didn't) - then is the council able to intervene? 

Also does the work they carried out at that time ensure that the property is now compliant with EPC regulations? It would be interesting to know.

General info in this link -

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/domestic-private-rented-property-minimum-energy-efficiency-standard-landlord-guidance#:~:text=requirements

I think I'd have to enquire at my council before I started throwing any money at the problem.

I've lived next door to very loud neighbours before and it really is horrible so I feel your pain. I hope you can get something sorted out

ThisIsWeird

Definitely worth a chat with the BCO at your local council, as MM says. No idea whether it'll be helpful, but it does seem incredible that someone can seemingly remove enough fabric from a party wall to allow the person on the other end of a phone to be audible!