After 3 years tenancy landlord suddenly claiming a payment didn't arrive -my bank says it did arrive

Artemis23

K_S said:

Formal email complaint to the estate agent, followed by escalating it to The Property Ombudsman (or the Property Redress Scheme, whichever system they are mandatorily registered with) if they refuse to accept that you aren't in arrears. There's no point with continuing this informal to and fro with the agent.

I wouldn't ignore it myself.

You're right.  I suppose in escalating this to the Ombudsman I can assume the agent will retaliate by not renewing my lease when it ends in a few months.  I guess I have to resign myself to finding somewhere else to live.

housebuyer143

Artemis23 said:

K_S said:

Formal email complaint to the estate agent, followed by escalating it to The Property Ombudsman (or the Property Redress Scheme, whichever system they are mandatorily registered with) if they refuse to accept that you aren't in arrears. There's no point with continuing this informal to and fro with the agent.

I wouldn't ignore it myself.

You're right.  I suppose in escalating this to the Ombudsman I can assume the agent will retaliate by not renewing my lease when it ends in a few months.  I guess I have to resign myself to finding somewhere else to live.

If they refuse to renew your agreement you don't need to leave without a court order and you can guarantee that will be a conversation that they will have to have with the owner as it will be the owner who will have to pursue this directly.

If you go on the website you will find the formal complaints procedure and then follow it, or you just stop replying about the arrears or simply respond with "please refer to all previous correspondence" to everything they send you and hope nothing comes of it, or pay them more money. Those are your choices. 
If you are still the "arrears" when you leave take it up with the deposit protection scheme who surely will see sense. 

propertyrental

Artemis23 said:

theartfullodger said:

i assume you mean you pay rent to  agent. Doesn't mean they are your landlord.

who/what is named as landlord on your tenancy agreement?  Agent or owner of the property?  (There are alternative positions)


Looking forward to your reply 

Best wishes. 

However, around a year ago this entire building was sold to an entirely different corporation, whose name does not appear on my tenancy agreement.  The new corporation has kept the same letting agent on as managing agents for the building. 

So the landlord listed on my tenancy agreement is no longer my landlord.  But when the sale happened I was advised to continue paying rent to the same bank account I've always paid rent to.

When the sale happened, did you receive a S3 Notice (Landlord & Tenant Act 1985 )?

3  Duty to inform tenant of assignment of landlord’s interest.

(1)If the interest of the landlord under a tenancy of premises which consist of or include a dwelling is assigned, the new landlord shall give notice in writing of the assignment, and of his name and address, to the tenant not later than the next day on which rent is payable under the tenancy or, if that is within two months of the assignment, the end of that period of two months.

(2)If trustees consititute the new landlord, a collective description of the trustes as the trustees of the trust in question may be given as the name of the landlord, and where such a collective description is given—
(a)the address of the new landlord may be given as the address from which the affairs of the trust are conducted, and
(b)a change in the persons who are for the time being the trustees of the trust shall not be treated as an assignment of the interest of the landlord.

(3)A person who is the new landlord under a tenancy falling within subsection (1) and who fails, without reasonable excuse to give the notice required by that subsection, commits a summary offence and is liable on conviction to a fine not exceeding level 4 on the standard scale.

[F1(3A)The person who was the landlord under the tenancy immediately before the assignment (“the old landlord”) shall be liable to the tenant in respect of any breach of any covenant, condition or agreement under the tenancy occurring before the end of the relevant period in like manner as if the interest assigned were still vested in him; and where the new landlord is also liable to the tenant in respect of any such breach occurring within that period, he and the old landlord shall be jointly and severally liable in respect of it.

doodling

Hi,

I would go with a letter along the lines of:

Dear [Agent],

With respect to your letters where you claim that I have missed a rent payment, due on xx/04/23, my position is as follows:

1. My payments are made by Standing Order which has not been recently amended and my account had sufficient funds in it at the time the payment was due, therefore it is highly likely that the payment was made and was made to the correct account with the correct reference.
2. My bank statement, supplied to you on xx/xx/23 shows that the payment was made to the correct account with the correct reference.
3. Following your query I obtained from my bank a letter (which was supplied to you on xx/xx/xx) confirming that the payment had been made and was received by your bank on xx/xx/xx at xx:xx.
4. I have not subsequently received a bank statement showing that the funds have been returned to my account (as demonstrated by the statements I sent to you on xx/xx/xx).
5. You have provided no evidence, other than a simple statement, that the rent has not been paid.
6. Given the above, my view is that an independent arbiter would conclude, on the balance of probabilities, that I have paid my rent.
7. In order to pursue this further I will require some evidence from you that you have not received my payment.  Such evidence might consist of a letter from your bank disputing my bank's letter of xx/xx/23 or an unredacted copy of your bank statements for two weeks either side of xx/xx/xx [rent payment date] showing that no payment has been received.
8. In the absence of such evidence, I propose that an independent arbiter, for example [The Property Ombudsman / The Property Redress Scheme - pick the applicable one for your agent] is asked to rule on the matter.

Please can you confirm whether you will providing the requested evidence or whether I should start the process of obtaining an independent view on this issue by making a formal complaint?

Love and kisses,

Tenant.

You'll need to fill in the xx's and deal with the square brackets as appropriate, you might also want to make the ending a little more formal...

theoretica

But what would you do if the agent does provide proof of funds not received?  I wouldn't happily pay up.  I think I would stick to 'I paid, here is proof, you need to chase your bank to trace the missing payment'.

doodling

Hi,

theoretica said:

But what would you do if the agent does provide proof of funds not received?  I wouldn't happily pay up.  I think I would stick to 'I paid, here is proof, you need to chase your bank to trace the missing payment'.

This is why I phrased things as I did - if they provide the evidence that the money hasn't turned up then the offer is to "pursue this further" which is not the same as paying up.  In reality it is likely that the agent's only choice is to obtain a letter from their own bank as data privacy legislation will prevent the release of their unredacted bank statements and I would hope that the agents' request for such a letter might cause the funds to be found.

If evidence is provided that the funds haven't turned up then it is time to put both banks in touch with each other and let them fight it out between them.  It may take a formal complaint to the bank to cause that to happen though.

Artemis23

propertyrental said:

Artemis23 said:

theartfullodger said:

i assume you mean you pay rent to  agent. Doesn't mean they are your landlord.

who/what is named as landlord on your tenancy agreement?  Agent or owner of the property?  (There are alternative positions)


Looking forward to your reply 

Best wishes. 

However, around a year ago this entire building was sold to an entirely different corporation, whose name does not appear on my tenancy agreement.  The new corporation has kept the same letting agent on as managing agents for the building. 

So the landlord listed on my tenancy agreement is no longer my landlord.  But when the sale happened I was advised to continue paying rent to the same bank account I've always paid rent to.

When the sale happened, did you receive a S3 Notice 

No they did not send me a notice.  There is a letter taped to the inside of the lift though that mentions that the building was sold and now has a new owner. 

doodling

Hi,

Artemis23 said:

propertyrental said:

Artemis23 said:

theartfullodger said:

i assume you mean you pay rent to  agent. Doesn't mean they are your landlord.

who/what is named as landlord on your tenancy agreement?  Agent or owner of the property?  (There are alternative positions)


Looking forward to your reply 

Best wishes. 

However, around a year ago this entire building was sold to an entirely different corporation, whose name does not appear on my tenancy agreement.  The new corporation has kept the same letting agent on as managing agents for the building. 

So the landlord listed on my tenancy agreement is no longer my landlord.  But when the sale happened I was advised to continue paying rent to the same bank account I've always paid rent to.

When the sale happened, did you receive a S3 Notice 

No they did not send me a notice.  There is a letter taped to the inside of the lift though that mentions that the building was sold and now has a new owner. 

The latter taped to the lift might constitute such a notice, even if it doesn't, whilst that isn't great, the absence of such a notice doesn't really make much difference.  That law is enforced by local councils who usually have other things to do and the enforcement wouldn't benefit you as a tenant.

If the landlord decided to sue you and your defence included the fact that they hadn't notified you that they were your new landlord then I expect that a court would be quite happy for them to service a notice as part of their case so it doesn't provide any kind of legal defence.

The only time it would be an issue is if you are planning to sue your landlord, in which case, if the letter on the lift wasn't a valid notice then you would have the option of suing both your current and your previous landlord jointly.

Artemis23

doodling said:

Hi,

I would go with a letter along the lines of:

Dear [Agent],

With respect to your letters where you claim that I have missed a rent payment, due on xx/04/23, my position is as follows:

1. My payments are made by Standing Order which has not been recently amended and my account had sufficient funds in it at the time the payment was due, therefore it is highly likely that the payment was made and was made to the correct account with the correct reference.
2. My bank statement, supplied to you on xx/xx/23 shows that the payment was made to the correct account with the correct reference.
3. Following your query I obtained from my bank a letter (which was supplied to you on xx/xx/xx) confirming that the payment had been made and was received by your bank on xx/xx/xx at xx:xx.
4. I have not subsequently received a bank statement showing that the funds have been returned to my account (as demonstrated by the statements I sent to you on xx/xx/xx).
5. You have provided no evidence, other than a simple statement, that the rent has not been paid.
6. Given the above, my view is that an independent arbiter would conclude, on the balance of probabilities, that I have paid my rent.
7. In order to pursue this further I will require some evidence from you that you have not received my payment.  Such evidence might consist of a letter from your bank disputing my bank's letter of xx/xx/23 or an unredacted copy of your bank statements for two weeks either side of xx/xx/xx [rent payment date] showing that no payment has been received.
8. In the absence of such evidence, I propose that an independent arbiter, for example [The Property Ombudsman / The Property Redress Scheme - pick the applicable one for your agent] is asked to rule on the matter.

Please can you confirm whether you will providing the requested evidence or whether I should start the process of obtaining an independent view on this issue by making a formal complaint?

Love and kisses,

Tenant.

You'll need to fill in the xx's and deal with the square brackets as appropriate, you might also want to make the ending a little more formal...

This is a great letter.  Thank you.

Jude57

Artemis23 said:

doodling said:

Hi,

I would go with a letter along the lines of:

Dear [Agent],

With respect to your letters where you claim that I have missed a rent payment, due on xx/04/23, my position is as follows:

1. My payments are made by Standing Order which has not been recently amended and my account had sufficient funds in it at the time the payment was due, therefore it is highly likely that the payment was made and was made to the correct account with the correct reference.
2. My bank statement, supplied to you on xx/xx/23 shows that the payment was made to the correct account with the correct reference.
3. Following your query I obtained from my bank a letter (which was supplied to you on xx/xx/xx) confirming that the payment had been made and was received by your bank on xx/xx/xx at xx:xx.
4. I have not subsequently received a bank statement showing that the funds have been returned to my account (as demonstrated by the statements I sent to you on xx/xx/xx).
5. You have provided no evidence, other than a simple statement, that the rent has not been paid.
6. Given the above, my view is that an independent arbiter would conclude, on the balance of probabilities, that I have paid my rent.
7. In order to pursue this further I will require some evidence from you that you have not received my payment.  Such evidence might consist of a letter from your bank disputing my bank's letter of xx/xx/23 or an unredacted copy of your bank statements for two weeks either side of xx/xx/xx [rent payment date] showing that no payment has been received.
8. In the absence of such evidence, I propose that an independent arbiter, for example [The Property Ombudsman / The Property Redress Scheme - pick the applicable one for your agent] is asked to rule on the matter.

Please can you confirm whether you will providing the requested evidence or whether I should start the process of obtaining an independent view on this issue by making a formal complaint?

Love and kisses,

Tenant.

You'll need to fill in the xx's and deal with the square brackets as appropriate, you might also want to make the ending a little more formal...

This is a great letter.  Thank you.

I'd recommend heading the letter 'Without Prejudice' to ensure nothing said within the body of the letter prevents you from altering your position at some point in the future. It's also an indication to the recipient that you are aware of and protecting your legal position.