Retrospective changing of tariff on Heat Network

cbmatheson

The T&Cs says 31 days notice must be given before a tariff adjustment. Personally I would have thought that would rule out retrospective changes to tariffs.

A genuine question if I may please: are retrospective tariff changes, after bills have been settled, really common practice on Heat Networks? I'm sorry but this is entirely new to me but the way they are billing feels very wrong

CSI_Yorkshire

cbmatheson said:

I have a document from With Energy which says:

"- Unit Charge: With Energy will purchase the gas required for the heat system and sell heat to the residents at a Heat Unit Rate based upon our initial gas purchase price and expected system efficiency. The tariff will be reviewed in April of each year and adjusted according to changes in the cost of gas and the actual efficiency of the system, with With Energy accepting the risk of variability of gas price and efficiency between re- views."

Now we're getting somewhere.  Does it say whether the tariff applies to the following or previous years?  Are there any other clauses that might apply?  I notice that in your first post they are saying that this is "30 days notice of the next tariff", which is odd when talking about a retrospective adjustment.

If this is the only mention, then I think you're right to challenge - precisely because of that line you bolded.  If the tariff says With accept the risk, then they can't come back and ask you to pay for the implication of the risk.

CSI_Yorkshire

cbmatheson said:

The T&Cs says 31 days notice must be given before a tariff adjustment. Personally I would have thought that would rule out retrospective changes to tariffs.

A genuine question if I may please: are retrospective tariff changes, after bills have been settled, really common practice on Heat Networks? I'm sorry but this is entirely new to me but the way they are billing feels very wrong

Clauses that say (in effect) "if we had to pay more for the fuel than we thought when setting the tariff, there will be a surcharge" are not uncommon - on heat networks and on the all-in-one energy/broadband/bill-sharing contracts that students occasionally sign up for.

Given the "we take the risk on gas price" line that you've found, you might have escaped that one.  The other thing they do is set next year's tariff on "what we think we might pay for gas", which of course they overestimate, but yours actually says initial gas price as well.

QrizB

cbmatheson said:

I have a document from With Energy which says:

"- Unit Charge: With Energy will purchase the gas required for the heat system and sell heat to the residents at a Heat Unit Rate based upon our initial gas purchase price and expected system efficiency. The tariff will be reviewed in April of each year and adjusted according to changes in the cost of gas and the actual efficiency of the system, with With Energy accepting the risk of variability of gas price and efficiency between re- views."

In addition to CSI's post, this seems to make it clear that With Energy are your supplier so their earlier reply:

that they are 'just a billing agent' and they follow Rendall and Rittner's direction. They have said that our management company is the heat supplier.

... seems to be incorrect.

cbmatheson

QrizB said:

cbmatheson said:

I have a document from With Energy which says:

"- Unit Charge: With Energy will purchase the gas required for the heat system and sell heat to the residents at a Heat Unit Rate based upon our initial gas purchase price and expected system efficiency. The tariff will be reviewed in April of each year and adjusted according to changes in the cost of gas and the actual efficiency of the system, with With Energy accepting the risk of variability of gas price and efficiency between re- views."

In addition to CSI's post, this seems to make it clear that With Energy are your supplier so their earlier reply:

that they are 'just a billing agent' and they follow Rendall and Rittner's direction. They have said that our management company is the heat supplier.

... seems to be incorrect.

Thanks, yes i'm actually at a stage where I don't know who or what to believe as I've received what I view as unclear and contradictory information from both sides. They have ignored messages where I have quoted that document but I won't be surprised if they tell me I was given the document in error and it doesn't apply (despite it having the name of our development on it).

CSI_Yorkshire said:

Clauses that say (in effect) "if we had to pay more for the fuel than we thought when setting the tariff, there will be a surcharge" are not uncommon

I've looked through the T&Cs carefully, there's obviously too much detail to go through here but there's certainly no clause like that.

It seems this might be quite complex and tricky to navigate and not the sort of thing that can be usefully discussed on this forum. Thank you kindly for the interest and replies though.

[Deleted User]

Presumably, many of the OP’s neighbours will have similar concerns. Personally, I would be asking my neighbours to crowd fund a legal opinion from someone qualified to give it. A letter from a solicitor saying that what you are doing is illegal will carry a lot more weight than a bunch of opinions gleaned from a forum.

cbmatheson

Following up in case anyone ever uncovers this thread.

Stephen Knight, who is Director of the Heat Trust - the non-profit consumer body who aim to hold Heat Networks to account - seems to think that there is a short and succinct answer to this:

https://twitter.com/StephenKnight1/status/1681322349633626112?s=20

“Retrospective tariff increases would appear to be unlawful under the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, Part 1, Para 14 and 15 https://legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/schedule/2/part/1/enacted try contacting

@CitizensAdvice

and your local council #tradingstandards”

Getting support from under resourced Trading Standards offices does not appear to be easy but it does seem clear they will not be able to enforce this charge.

CSI_Yorkshire

Thanks for coming back and letting us know.  I still disagree with that interpretation, as there are several extant contracts that do allow retrospective tariff changes, but perhaps that's simply because they have never been challenged - Mr Knight would appear to be an appropriate expert in the topic.

danco

There seems to be a contradiction in the information that has been provided to you. In your first post you say that Wise Energy claim that they are only a billing agent and that the management company (who may well be different from the managing agents, Rendall and Rittner) are the heat supplier. But your later post says you have been told that Wise Energy will purchase the gas and sell heat to the residents. That would make them the heat supplier. So the first thing to do is to get clarification as to who the heat supplier actually is.

Then It is worth knowing when your property was built and whether the system was installed properly. R&R say the bills are based on actual consumption, but it is possible that errors in the building system have caused excessive gas consumption. Also how are the bills calculated.

I live in a block that used to have R&R as managing agents, with Switch2 billing for heat used under a virtual metering system. R&R have been useless on everything, and the developers of our fairly recent block have now taken management into their own hands. We don't like the virtual metering, but probably can't do anything about that. At present nobody (developers included) is sure that Switch2 is billing correctly. Also, our warm air system has filters, and dirty filters causes excessive use of gas. The developers did not even know those filters existed, even denied that they existed when an expert they called in mentioned them, and have only recently accepted that they are there and need cleaning. We have been promised compensation but details of this are under discussion still. We are all thoroughly dissatisfied. The only saving feature is that we have been told that until everything has been cleared up we don't need to pay the bills that have been issued.

Anyway, my experience is only relevant in that it shows there are several areas worth your looking at before you actually make any payment

cbmatheson

danco said:

R&R have been useless on everything

Thanks for sharing. Our experience with R&R has been similar although I've been told there's a separate rants board for that.

I did do some further digging and found R&R took over gas purchasing from With Energy early 2022 and didn't bother telling anyone. They then failed to set tariffs at a rate that would recover overall gas usage and failed to notice their mistake for an entire year.
- R&R told me, in writing, that the Supply Agreement 'became invalid' at the start of 2022 despite no-one having notified us at the time. This would seem to be another trading standards issue
- The Energy Ombudsman have confirmed to me that with R&R responsible for purchasing gas, the management company (R&R being their agent) are considered the Heat Supplier. I wouldn't be surprised if the management company were unaware of this. We the residents are not in control of them.
- There is a legal requirement for Heat Suppliers to be registered with the Energy Ombudsman. Our Heat Supplier do not appear to be. I have made the Ombudsman aware, who have contacted them to onboard them. If they do not co-operate they will be referred to Office of Product Safety Standards
- The Energy Ombudsman will only take on Heat Network complaints where they relate to the Energy Bills Relief Scheme. I have argued that by retrospectively altering our tariff R&R/the management company have distorted any calculations past EBRS payments were based on. The Energy Ombudsman have agreed to take on this complaint and have passed it to their investigation team
- I also have an ongoing complaint with the Property Ombudsman

It really is quite a car crash, will be interesting to see how it all works out.