LPA got myself in a bit of a pickle

Klare1

Hi forumites
Hope someone will be able to advise as the OPG is shut until Monday and I can’t find the answer on-line but that’s probably because I’m not thinking straight as unable to sleep as I’ve let my parents down.
Basically, my 90 year old parents (both with dementia) have been victim of rogue traders and scammed for 4K worth of windows that they don’t need. Whilst the bank (Nationwide) are being really helpful they need more LPA details with codes from the OPG.
Their solicitor prepared Enduring Power of Attorney for me and my brother (jointly or severely) for property and finances in 2007 and sent us authenticated copies. (Solicitor has now retired and sent all the paperwork to a new solicitor)
We have never registered this with the OPG, should we have done? How quickly can I do this and is this on-line, and will they accept the authenticated copies or should I approach the new solicitor.
In Summer 2020 my parents solicitor prepared LPA health & welfare which was registered with the OPG and I have confirmation from them with a reference number and activation key, (of course this only lasts 12 months and has expired) The registered LPA has been sent to the solicitor.

Also both myself and brother have both changed addresses since the documents were prepared.

As Mum & Dad are becoming increasingly frail what are the best steps to now get all the paperwork in order please?

Please don’t tell me I’m stupid for not doing everything properly at the time. I know that and I’m giving myself a hard enough time as it is.

Many thanks for any practical advice.

Teapot55

Two questions @Klare1:

Have the £4000 windows been paid for already, or have you just got the invoice?

Do your parents have to physically go to their bank if they have a problem or do they/ have they in the past used telephone banking? 

Klare1

@Teapot55  £1125 deposit paid, which we hope to get back tomorrow direct from the company otherwise bank has said they’ll do a visa chargeback.
Yes I can get them to the bank, they don’t use telephone/on-line banking but obviously I now realise I’ve been stupid and need to get all the paperwork in order for future.
I’ve cancelled all their cards and removed the cheque book as the salesman had taken a card payment in their home and left them with the receipt which stated card holder not present.  (Mum can’t remember her PIN anymore bless her)
She thinks they’ve phoned her to say they will be back on Wednesday to undertake the work.  
They will have the opportunity to meet me, my brother, police and trading Standards if they turn up, but I doubt they will.  Google reviews of the company have multiple similar stories.
How do these salesmen sleep at night.  Conning pensioners with obvious dementia out of money.
Apparently they are providing 18 windows for £4500.  18 windows they must have counted every pane of glass in the conservatory too!

Flugelhorn

Looking at the EPA site on gov.uk - you register the EPA when they lose capacity (not the same as LPA) so  I think it is OK that you have not yet done so - there are instructions here as to how to get it done:

https://www.gov.uk/enduring-power-attorney-duties/register-an-enduring-power-of-attorney

tacpot12

Sorry, I don't know whether the EPA should have been registered or what you can do if wasn't and needed to be, but I wanted to comment on the scam. 

Is there a problem with the windows or the installation? If not, then your only hope is to show that your parents didn't have capacity to agree the contract for them. Have a read of this: Capacity of a company to contract in UK law - Commercial Contracts (harperjames.co.uk)

If the EPA should have been registered but wasn't, then it seems possible that your and your brother don't have a power of attorney covering Financial Affairs. Therefore, you would need to apply for the Court of Protection to represent your parents - they can't really represent themselves if they are claiming that they didn't have capacity to sign the contract!

If you and your brother have control of their bank accounts, and they have no way to pay the company, I think your first step should be to take professional legal advice. Most solicitors will give you upto half an hour to discuss the legal situation, and should advise you in that time what their charges will be and what the chances of success will be. 

I would expect that their advice will be to write to the company and say that you are not going to pay the bill using your parent's money as they had no capacity to contract for new windows, and they weren't required. I would advise them that you have obtained legal advice and have the resources to fight this. Personally I would not admit that you don't have a PoA for Finance (if this turns out to be the case), but you need to find out from the OPG how you would apply to the Court of Protection for legal representation for you parents if they are sued by the company. 

 I would also look at whether there is anything substandard about the windows or the installation. If things go wrong at court and it is decided that your parents had capacity, then you should be ready with the evidence of the problems. I would expect the legal advice would be to make a counter-claim for the substandard windows and installation if the company sues your parents for the money. 

Teapot55

Thanks for a very full reply @Klare1. It does rather sound as though you’ve stepped in just in time to save the day, so I really wouldn’t ‘beat yourself up’ over what could have been. With everything that seems to have to be done in life it’s easy to overlook or shelve non-urgent tasks. (We all do it!)

Flugelhorn

Flugelhorn said:

Looking at the EPA site on gov.uk - you register the EPA when they lose capacity (not the same as LPA) so  I think it is OK that you have not yet done so - there are instructions here as to how to get it done:

https://www.gov.uk/enduring-power-attorney-duties/register-an-enduring-power-of-attorney

and... don't beat yourself up over any of this. I took ages to register LPA for mother (all sorts of reasons) - when I finally came to do it one of the named "people to be told" was actually far more demented than her and in a nursing home. 

Teapot55

Just to add that I doubt either police or trading standards will attend (unless you know different @Klare1 ?)

More importantly, I’d be inclined to phone the company Monday to cancel their visit - isn’t there a fourteen day ‘cooling off period’ by law anyway? See https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/reclaim/consumer-rights-refunds-exchange/ 

Klare1

@Teapot55 yes trying the cooling off period tomorrow and local PCSO will most likely attend.  TS are very interested 
So fingers crossed the scam will be sorted 

Sarahspangles

Flugelhorn said:

Looking at the EPA site on gov.uk - you register the EPA when they lose capacity (not the same as LPA) so  I think it is OK that you have not yet done so - there are instructions here as to how to get it done:

https://www.gov.uk/enduring-power-attorney-duties/register-an-enduring-power-of-attorney

That’s correct - OH’s parents also created EPA’s in 2007 and OH was able to take on the attorney role as soon as FIL produced the documents from the safe ten years later - basically at the point he knew they needed support. Then after FIL passed away, when MIL started to get muddled, OH registered hers with OPG. Note that some organisations don’t understand the difference between EPAs and LPAs, it’s worth understanding this yourself, and being prepared to explain they’re an older type of attorneyship. Once you’ve got the document back from OPG it’s easier.

Daniel54

The EPA only covers financial affairs,which is why your parents organised a separate LPA for health and welfare

 I managed my mother’s affairs under the EPA no problem , until she lost capacity and I registered the EPA with the OPG.The only question with Nationwide is whether they will accept the authorised copy of the EPA ( hopefully so ) rather than require sight of the original.You may need to explain that this is an EPA not an LPA.I had to go into the bank so they could take a copy and register me as authorised to deal with my mother’s accounts

To repeat,the EPA grants you power over your parents finances but you will need to have your position noted by the bank and it is useful to be able to say you have your parents ‘permission.

Once you have sorted the window issue out it may well be worth registering the EPA with the OPG so you can be sure of no repeat

Added - to register the EPA with the OPG you need to send off the original,which is why I suggest doing this as a secondary step.