A question about POFA

Snakes_Belly

A quick question please about the POFA as I am not very well up on this. If a keeper receives their first letter on 20/05/2023 stating the final notification letter for issue date 14/04/2023. The letter also states that the discounted amount no longer applies and the amount is now £100.00. This is the first letter that they have received. The keeper and driver are not the same.

What would be their next step as keeper?

Thanks.  

Fruitcake

It will depend whether the alleged event involved a NTD or ANPR since the dates to hold a keeper liable will be different.

Please tell us the date of the alleged event and whether or not a NTD was given.

The date of the alleged event is always zero.

If a NTD was issued, to hold the keeper liable the NTK must arrive between day 28 and 56 inclusive.
If no NTD, then the NTK must arrive by day 14 to hold the keeper liable.

If a reminder has been received but no NTK, the reminder should be treated as a TK, even though the PPC will say they sent one.

Snakes_Belly

Fruitcake said:

It will depend whether the alleged event involved a NTD or ANPR since the dates to hold a keeper liable will be different.

Please tell us the date of the alleged event and whether or not a NTD was given.

The date of the alleged event is always zero.

If a NTD was issued, to hold the keeper liable the NTK must arrive between day 28 and 56 inclusive.
If no NTD, then the NTK must arrive by day 14 to hold the keeper liable.

If a reminder has been received but no NTK, the reminder should be treated as a TK, even though the PPC will say they sent one.

Thanks Fruitcake.

It's Lichfield so I am pretty certain that it is ANPR so no NTD.  The very first communication came on the 20/5/2023 and the PCN was issued on the 14/4/2023 according to the letter received on the 20/5/2023.

So it would appear that ECP have lost the Protection of the POFA and cannot hold the keeper liable. I don't really know where they will go with this. They have not been able to appeal either to ECP or BPA. The keeper was not driving.    

Coupon-mad

Was the parking date before 14/4?

Sounds like a postal PCN went astray. There's a lot of that going on this year...

Fruitcake

Treat the first communication as the NTK and appeal by post, sent first class from a Post Office counter and obtain the all important proof of posting. It will be rejected for being too late, but it's all part of playing the game.


The keeper should complain to the BPA that despite being the first communication and therefore considered to be the NTK, the operator has failed to provide a discount, and failed to allow an appeal.
They should also complain to their MP and the landowner.

Snakes_Belly

Fruitcake said:

Treat the first communication as the NTK and appeal by post, sent first class from a Post Office counter and obtain the all important proof of posting. It will be rejected for being too late, but it's all part of playing the game.


The keeper should complain to the BPA that despite being the first communication and therefore considered to be the NTK, the operator has failed to provide a discount, and failed to allow an appeal.
They should also complain to their MP and the landowner.

When they appeal do they just say that they were not driving.  The keeper was not in the car at the time. The driver was in the car with a disabled passenger who thought that the car park was free for blue badge holders. It used to be council run as are most in the city.

It does annoy me that disabled driver/passengers are treated so badly by the PPC's. A relative of mine who is disabled was treated so well in a theatre recently the contrast is unbelievable. They had an access card.

Coupon-mad

Not sure I'd bother to appeal. It's only ECP, who never sue.

Or I'd appeal changing the address for service to that of a robust family member, to spare the disabled person the threatograms if that would worry them.

I would complain to ECP and the BPA that the PCN was never sent, though. The victim wasn't driving and wanted to take it to POPLA.  That MIGHT get a POPLA Code. 

B789

If the parking date was 14/4/23, the NtK must have a date no later than 26/4/23 to be "deemed" to have been delivered by 28/4/23 assuming it was posted the same day. When it is actually received is not relevant as PoFA is only concerned when it is "deemed" to have been served.

Coupon-mad said:

Sounds like a postal PCN went astray. There's a lot of that going on this year...

I would hazard a guess, based on evidence from this forum, that the incidence of initial NtKs never being received is well over any national average of mail that goes "missing". Considering the ex-clamper background and rogue practices of the majority of these unregulated companies, I am suggesting that maybe an enquiry should be carried out to confirm that the practice of not sending initial NtKs is a deliberate action designed to increase the profits of these serial scammers by denying victims the opportunity to pay the bribe discounted charge.

@Coupon-mad, was or could there be any discussion amongst the group you are a member of to raise the question of why these highly profitable unregulated private parking companies are allowed to operate a time-sensitive mailing operation with no requirement for them to provide even simple proof of posting of speculative invoices which are considered by the general public at large to be "fines" or "penalties"?

If they use a bulk mail service to send their NtKs which does not postmark the envelopes then they should be forced to use a proof of posting service.

Snakes_Belly

The disabled person was the passenger. They told the driver that disabled parking was free on the car park. Neither of these were the keeper.

So complain to ECP that the PCN was never sent and the first communication received was the letter on the 20th May 2023. This has meant that the keeper was unable to appeal either to ECP or to POPLA.

Also complain to the BPA that a PCN was never sent and the keeper wished to appeal to POPLA. 

Thanks CM and Fruitcake.

Snakes_Belly

If the parking date was 14/4/23, the NtK must have a date no later than 26/4/23 to be "deemed" to have been delivered by 28/4/23 assuming it was posted the same day. When it is actually received is not relevant as PoFA is only concerned when it is "deemed" to have been served.

Nothing at all until the 20/5/2023. The charge had gone up to £100.00 and it was the first that the keeper knew about it.

I personally think all car parks should be free to disabled drivers/passengers. The lack of parity in car parks creates problems. This happens especially where a number of the car parks are council run. In fact the car park opposite to this car park is free to disabled drivers. It's the same with hospitals some are free to BB holders and others not. It's not surprising that people fall foul.  

B789

Just sent the following to several Royal Mail addresses including their DPO and the COO, Grant McPherson (the CEO was recently invited to resign because of poor performance and a replacement has not been announced yet) in order to try and elicit some information that may be useful if we can establish that PPCs have an unusually high incidence of having their NtKs disappearing in the post.

Dear Sir/Madam,

I am attempting to find out information pertaining to the performance of Royal Mail's first-class postal delivery service.

Recently, I have become aware of an unusual pattern where a significant number of first-class letters from multiple unregulated private parking companies (PPCs) are reportedly not reaching their intended recipients. These letters are critical as they contain "Notice to Keeper" Parking Charge Notices (PCNs), and failure to receive these notices in a timely manner can lead to higher charges for the recipients.

Given this situation, I am interested in understanding whether there is a larger issue at play involving first-class postal delivery. Specifically, I am seeking information or statistics on the percentage of first-class letters that do not reach their intended destination, or go missing.

I understand that Royal Mail maintains high standards in mail delivery and that most post reaches its recipients without issue. However, the data I am seeking would help in understanding whether there is a systemic issue that needs to be addressed, particularly in relation to the mailing practices of PPCs which, unfortunately, reflects poorly on Royal Mail.

Could you kindly provide this information or direct me to where I might find such statistics? Data from the recent years would be particularly helpful.

Thank you in advance for your assistance. I look forward to your response, and to potentially working together to ensure that all important notices are received as intended.

Yours sincerely,