Air source heat pump vs oil - high install cost and higher running costs ?

matt_drummer

Billxx said:

I have read recently in the papers examples of heat pumps being fitted, then breaking down, and customers being unable to get engineers to fix them.  I don't think the market has matured enough for me.  I'd stay clear.

Newspapers don't print articles about equipment that is working correctly.

People don't generally create posts on internet forums to tell us that nothing has broken today or that everything is great with their energy account.

When I have had issues with my gas boiler in the past, I can't ever say that it has been easy to find somebody local, reasonably priced and reliable to come and do the work.

But I rarely have issues so it's not that much of a problem.

Why would a heat pump be any different?

Fizz1981

TBH am going to respectfully disagree - everyone is being penalised in terms of climate damage and it’s associated costs. It needs to be economic for individuals to swap out existing systems to achieve lower carbon emissions .

I wish we could have got one of the inexpensive Octopus installations, the other poster mentioned, but they said the house didnt fit their criteria as the pump sizing and installation distances were too big. It seems they are picking up the ‘low hanging fruit’ for installations that are cheap and easy. The whole market needs an overhaul- it’s a mess.  tbh it’s taken since the beginning of Feb to get to this stage and have already spoke to 6 companies half of whom were too useless to even quote ! 

matt_drummer

You can't make something cheap when it isn't, that means somebody has to pay for the difference between what is considered to be economically viable and the true cost.

Your home is obviously outside of what Octopus can manage at the moment. They only supply certain heat pumps and simple installations.

I wouldn't say they were particularly cheap, they just aren't making much out of it and buy the equipment in bulk.

You are still not being penalised, it's just the cost of being `greener', nobody ever promised that environmentally friendly would be cheaper than burning fossil fuels. The point of it is to reduce emissions, not save money. If money can be saved in the end that's great but it's not the primary objective.

Fizz1981

It’s interesting that the government can make things like new oil  cheap when it’s not by subsidising new oilfields like Rosebank. Why can’t they divert that cash to making fossil fuel avoiding solutions like heat pumps cheap instead? our taxes will end up subsidising estimated 90% of rosebank oilfield, owned by company making £62bn profit already and actively expanding GHG emissions. Subsidy to non fossil fuel solutions could be paid for by this money instead and also have the double benefit of removing future massive costs of dealing with climate change impacts 

69bertie

Interesting topic. I'm also oil fired. But unless oil rockets in price - it has come back down to levels pre-covid - I seriously doubt I could justify getting a heat pump with the extra expense. Say it is even a couple of thousand £'s. That will buy me enough oil for the next 3 years. Getting people out to fix the heating isn't a problem. I actually had it pack up on Boxing day last year. One phone call the next day and someone came along and fixed it that day. But I do tend to use the same company.

And while I do have solar and batteries, any heat pump be it heating or hot water will be eating into their output come winter time. I've just been looking at the SOC of the batteries today. Its been a couple of miserable days here, very cloudy near the East coast and the current SOC is 27%. Our consumption is 409w and the solar is barely producing 501w. Looks like I will have to up the overnight charge on the cheap rate to a good couple of hours to get that SOC back up. And one thing I have learnt when the boiler did stop working is not to put all the eggs in one basket. One reason I wish I had a separate water cylinder instead of a combi. A heat pump won't be any different. If it packs up, you lose it all.

DougMLancs

Are they quoting for a load of pipe replacement because it’s not a given that it’s necessary. My installer recently published this feedback from a customer which shows you can achieve a lot with the right approach to the technology. https://www.linkedin.com/posts/brendon-uys-tmiet-3620473a_back-to-business-another-one-for-the-performance-activity-7065726423621066752-2424?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_ios

matt_drummer

69bertie said:

 One reason I wish I had a separate water cylinder instead of a combi. A heat pump won't be any different. If it packs up, you lose it all.

No, you will have a hot water tank with a heat pump.

Fizz1981

DougMLancs said:

Are they quoting for a load of pipe replacement because it’s not a given that it’s necessary. My installer recently published this feedback from a customer which shows you can achieve a lot with the right approach to the technology.

No there’s no pipe replacement. They are having to replace consumer unit as no space on existing. Also replace 14 rads (some definitely need doing as the rooms are too cool even with existing system). Put in ‘meters’ for consumption of elec & h/w systems, power flush pipes. Also new h/w cylinder, immersion, replace pump that boosts water pressure to house. Sort out old header tanks and h/w piping which is currently ‘Heath Robinson’.

 Other rads in their detail heat loss calcs the existing rooms are way less than 100% of demand but are still way warm enough on current system. 
Question is how to verify these calcs? 
My thought is devil is in the detail in sizing ASHP system - too big and it costs a fortune (as may be in this case?) too small and you are freezing. The company are well respected locally and have done many installs- am about to talk to someone who has existing install from them. Haven’t had any success in getting another come to give detail quote for comparison. 

Fizz1981

not sure what happened to formatting on the reply above - following text was mine not from DougMLancs : 
No there’s no pipe replacement. They are having to replace consumer unit as no space on existing. Also replace 14 rads (some definitely need doing as the rooms are too cool even with existing system). Put in ‘meters’ for consumption of elec & h/w systems, power flush pipes. Also new h/w cylinder, immersion, replace pump that boosts water pressure to house. Sort out old header tanks and h/w piping which is currently ‘Heath Robinson’.

QrizB

Fizz1981 said:

 I currently have an oil boiler and use about 2000 litres oil a year

2000 litres of oil contains about 20,000kWh of energy. Assuming a modern 90% efficient boiler, that means a heat demand of 18,000kWh per year.

Fizz1981 said:

I’ve had quote for ASHP to replace  upgrade most of the radiators , install a 13kW air source heat pump & a new hot water system.

A 13kW ASHP costs about £6k, so the remaining £18k is for everything else.

I agree with others who say this seems a high quote for the job.

Fizz1981 said:

Heating & h/w demand is approx 22700kWh/yr. Which they reckon will translate into about 7500 kWh/yr of actual elec consumption for hot water and heating. They have calculated this as £2596 / year @ 0.34p /kWh (which as we all know is far from certain given energy volatility).

Last year I paid about £1900 for the oil to do the same job.

The 18000kWh of heat you used last year might need 6000kWh of electricity to provide via your new heat pump. At 34p/kWh that would be £2040.

34p/kWh is historically a very high price for electricity, but then so was 95p/litre for oil.