Mum has shopping addiction, has taken out lifetime mortgage on her home

lozzer1701

Hi everyone,

Perhaps the title is an overly simplistic one for what is actually a rather complex situation; but I'll try and make this as succinct as possible...

My mum always has had issues around her spending, to the point my dad (bless him) was working two jobs.  Back when we were teens, it was Franklin Mint; jewellery, books, ornaments.  More latterly, its been shopping channels (particularly QVC).  She honestly has a room full of boxes of items she's ordered.

In mid 2019, Dad died.  Mum was still trying to process it all, when we ended up in lockdown during 2020.  It was certain hard for her, and we did what we could.  There was a point during that year that she actually seemed to realise she had a spending problem, and was even pleased with herself that she had managed to stop watching her beloved shopping channels.  As the country opened back up again, she began focusing on her home and what could be done to improve it. My brother helped her arrange equity release in order to finance the work. It kept her attention, so I was okay with it.  My brother also arranged for people to start the work that required doing.  This was before the loan had actually completed, which did seem daft but as Mum was so eager to get things going I went with the flow.  I was asked by my brother if I pay over £5k for the fitting of new windows at Mum's, and having been assured I wouldn't lose out in the interim, I did so.  He also arranged for a friend of his to begin work in the garden, and paid for this out of his own pocket. 

In hindsight I should have spoke up more at the time, considering the fact that if anything can go wrong, it will.  And it did.  After we'd already paid for work to be completed, and before the money for the loan had come through, Mum had a breakdown.  During a phone call from her lender to tidy up some details, she told them that she no longer required the loan as she'd had a windfall (she hadn't).  More or less within weeks the process fell apart; Mum tried to spend over £20k she didn't actually have on QVC orders (thankfully, a lot of them bounced), her utility bills weren't being paid and she had no money for food. My brother and I were also left out of pocket.

Mum ended under the gaze of the MH team and social services for quite some time.  I managed to get her debit card off her under the pretense that I needed it to set up her online banking (I've managed to deflect her enough to keep hold of it until now), and as I was able to manage her spending that way social services backed off her case, as they were at one point actively considering applying to the courts for control of her finances.  I was able (funnily enough, with Mum's help by this point), to make arrangements with the various utilities to pay off her arrears, cleared off debt collectors, and for the first time she was saving money.  It was going so well, that I believe (and still do), that we could have ultimately paid for the rest of the home improvements and refunds for the work already done with money mum had saved, given time.  I was okay with waiting, and had hoped that Mum would be able to see how much she could achieve with proper money management.  I certainly never discussed another loan with her, and although her 'health' had vastly improved compared to how she was in late 2020, she was still regularly asking me to order items from shopping channels.  I didn't, and convinced her that either they had run out of stock or couriers were losing the parcels.  Her health had improved, but the shopping addiction had returned.  I could see the danger if Mum again tried to take out a loan; she never had an official diagnosis, so what would happen if she fell ill again?

So I was horrified when last year, she announced she had begun the process of taking out another loan.  I contacted my brother (who had shown little interest in Mum's everyday affairs since I took control) for support, hoping that he would realise that Mum taking out a loan considering her history was dangerous and would agree to help persuade Mum not to do it.  He didn't, and despite knowing at least of her health issues couldn't see the problem with it.  The conversation from thereon in degenerated.  Me on one side seeing the dangers of Mum potentially having free access to a large sum of money, him not.  I tried speaking to the lender myself, to try and get them at least to pay more attention to her past credit history and not just her most recent healthy balance sheet, and warned them she had had health issues.  They were quite communicative, up to the point that they found out that the only authority I had was Mum's good will and not an LPA.  They started ignoring me from then on.  The MH team while initially supportive backed away, seemingly suggesting that they could do nothing as spending addiction wasn't a mental health problem.  Mum had been telling social services to go away for long enough, that they more or less have.

Fast forward to today.  I couldn't stop the loan, and she now has about £40k in the bank between that and what I'd helped her to save.  She thinks the authorities are no longer watching her, and is actively asking for her card back, all while telling me regularly that she's missing out on so much; whether that be cosmetics bundles or those gems that are so rare as they've almost been 'mined out'.  My brother has again organised for work to be done on Mum's house, through a contractor friend of his. I've asked for him to hold off, while I go through the process of getting quotes.  I also asked for some kind of written record of the money already spent, plus proper quotes from his friend for Mum's records so we have traceability of her spend  in case she fell ill again.  The result of this was a torrent of abuse and threats.

I'm now feeling lost.  Mum can be very plausible, and there's nothing stopping her ringing up the bank and getting her card back that way.  My brother is happy to take her money with no traceability and doesn't seem to care what the consequences may be if the authorities got involved in her case again.  While the rest of the family agree with my view of things and my approach to handling Mum's business over the last couple of years, none of them will get involved in this.  I need help, and have none.

Any suggestions as to what I can do would be much appreciated.

MattMattMattUK

lozzer1701 said:

Hi everyone,

Perhaps the title is an overly simplistic one for what is actually a rather complex situation; but I'll try and make this as succinct as possible...

My mum always has had issues around her spending, to the point my dad (bless him) was working two jobs.  Back when we were teens, it was Franklin Mint; jewellery, books, ornaments.  More latterly, its been shopping channels (particularly QVC).  She honestly has a room full of boxes of items she's ordered.

In mid 2019, Dad died.  Mum was still trying to process it all, when we ended up in lockdown during 2020.  It was certain hard for her, and we did what we could.  There was a point during that year that she actually seemed to realise she had a spending problem, and was even pleased with herself that she had managed to stop watching her beloved shopping channels.  As the country opened back up again, she began focusing on her home and what could be done to improve it. My brother helped her arrange equity release in order to finance the work. It kept her attention, so I was okay with it.  My brother also arranged for people to start the work that required doing.  This was before the loan had actually completed, which did seem daft but as Mum was so eager to get things going I went with the flow.  I was asked by my brother if I pay over £5k for the fitting of new windows at Mum's, and having been assured I wouldn't lose out in the interim, I did so.  He also arranged for a friend of his to begin work in the garden, and paid for this out of his own pocket. 

In hindsight I should have spoke up more at the time, considering the fact that if anything can go wrong, it will.  And it did.  After we'd already paid for work to be completed, and before the money for the loan had come through, Mum had a breakdown.  During a phone call from her lender to tidy up some details, she told them that she no longer required the loan as she'd had a windfall (she hadn't).  More or less within weeks the process fell apart; Mum tried to spend over £20k she didn't actually have on QVC orders (thankfully, a lot of them bounced), her utility bills weren't being paid and she had no money for food. My brother and I were also left out of pocket.

Mum ended under the gaze of the MH team and social services for quite some time.  I managed to get her debit card off her under the pretense that I needed it to set up her online banking (I've managed to deflect her enough to keep hold of it until now), and as I was able to manage her spending that way social services backed off her case, as they were at one point actively considering applying to the courts for control of her finances.  I was able (funnily enough, with Mum's help by this point), to make arrangements with the various utilities to pay off her arrears, cleared off debt collectors, and for the first time she was saving money.  It was going so well, that I believe (and still do), that we could have ultimately paid for the rest of the home improvements and refunds for the work already done with money mum had saved, given time.  I was okay with waiting, and had hoped that Mum would be able to see how much she could achieve with proper money management.  I certainly never discussed another loan with her, and although her 'health' had vastly improved compared to how she was in late 2020, she was still regularly asking me to order items from shopping channels.  I didn't, and convinced her that either they had run out of stock or couriers were losing the parcels.  Her health had improved, but the shopping addiction had returned.  I could see the danger if Mum again tried to take out a loan; she never had an official diagnosis, so what would happen if she fell ill again?

So I was horrified when last year, she announced she had begun the process of taking out another loan.  I contacted my brother (who had shown little interest in Mum's everyday affairs since I took control) for support, hoping that he would realise that Mum taking out a loan considering her history was dangerous and would agree to help persuade Mum not to do it.  He didn't, and despite knowing at least of her health issues couldn't see the problem with it.  The conversation from thereon in degenerated.  Me on one side seeing the dangers of Mum potentially having free access to a large sum of money, him not.  I tried speaking to the lender myself, to try and get them at least to pay more attention to her past credit history and not just her most recent healthy balance sheet, and warned them she had had health issues.  They were quite communicative, up to the point that they found out that the only authority I had was Mum's good will and not an LPA.  They started ignoring me from then on.  The MH team while initially supportive backed away, seemingly suggesting that they could do nothing as spending addiction wasn't a mental health problem.  Mum had been telling social services to go away for long enough, that they more or less have.

Fast forward to today.  I couldn't stop the loan, and she now has about £40k in the bank between that and what I'd helped her to save.  She thinks the authorities are no longer watching her, and is actively asking for her card back, all while telling me regularly that she's missing out on so much; whether that be cosmetics bundles or those gems that are so rare as they've almost been 'mined out'.  My brother has again organised for work to be done on Mum's house, through a contractor friend of his. I've asked for him to hold off, while I go through the process of getting quotes.  I also asked for some kind of written record of the money already spent, plus proper quotes from his friend for Mum's records so we have traceability of her spend  in case she fell ill again.  The result of this was a torrent of abuse and threats.

I'm now feeling lost.  Mum can be very plausible, and there's nothing stopping her ringing up the bank and getting her card back that way.  My brother is happy to take her money with no traceability and doesn't seem to care what the consequences may be if the authorities got involved in her case again.  While the rest of the family agree with my view of things and my approach to handling Mum's business over the last couple of years, none of them will get involved in this.  I need help, and have none.

Any suggestions as to what I can do would be much appreciated.

Is she mentally competent and are you prepared to have her sectioned if she is not? If she is an adult with competency then the choice is hers, that is the threshold for intervention from the authorities. 

KxMx

This may be one of those situations where all you can do is take a step back for your own sanity. 
And if/when things fall apart and Mum asks for your help, decide whether you are willing to do that. 

Mands

MattMattMattUK said:

Is she mentally competent and are you prepared to have her sectioned if she is not? If she is an adult with competency then the choice is hers, that is the threshold for intervention from the authorities. 

Matt's summation is excellent.

There *is* a middle ground but I doubt it's a good option in this case. *If* she'd agree to a financial LPA then you can control her finances. But she would have to be willing to see that through and pay for it and with the current waiting time to register you'd be lucky to get it up and running before Christmas.

Even then you'd be kept busy trying to undo arrangements she'd made, all while being resented by her and without the support of your brother.

What would be the consequences of her spending as she has been? If she burned through all the equity in the house would she still be able to live on her income?

Hugs, this is a rotten situation.

TBagpuss

I think all you can do is what you're already dong - trying to talk to your mum about getting PoA so you can manage some of her finances on her behalf, and expressly raising with the credit company that she is vulnerable (preferably in writing, as this may assist in the event that she gets into arrears and they seek to enforce the debt) 

If the debt is a lifetime mortgage, while this is an expensive way to borrow money and probably not a great idea from a financial standpoint, it is something that would usually only be repayable following her death so should not jeopardise her housing security and as it will be secured against the house it may also make it harder for her to get other loans.

Is there any chance that she would consent to some of te money being moved into a different account that she doesn't have access to so you could manage it on her behalf? 

Malthusian

*If* she'd agree to a financial LPA then you can control her finances. But she would have to be willing to see that through and pay for it and with the current waiting time to register you'd be lucky to get it up and running before Christmas.

And if the OP used it to block her spending somehow while she still has capacity, she could revoke it and remove the blocks. 

What would be the consequences of her spending as she has been? If she burned through all the equity in the house would she still be able to live on her income?

Equity release loans have maximum loan to value ratios; a 60-something can generally borrow between a third and a quarter of the house's value, with the maximum loan rising with age. If she borrows the maximum amount she can and then spends it all, she'll be in the same income position she was before (which the OP says she can live on, shopping addiction aside).
The loan could still swallow up the whole house as the interest is rolled up, preventing her from moving or using the equity for something else.
Alternatively she could simply sell the house, rent and spend 100% of the equity if she chose to.
@OP: I agree with KxMx. Let us suppose your mother gave in to you, cancelled the equity release loan, cancelled all the building works, stopped buying stuff on QVC and started saving again. And then three years later it all starts up again. What would be the point? 
Also, you should either give her back her bank card, or if you are unwilling to do that, cut it into quarters and return it to the bank by recorded delivery. Holding on to it puts both of you at risk. Suppose she falls victim to a card cloning scam (it can happen to anyone). The bank's fraud department rings her up and asks if she gave anyone her banking details. She says "yes, I gave my daughter my debit card so she could set up online banking for me. But she never did and she refuses to give it back even though I've asked her several times." How is that going to look to an outsider?
If you want to influence her finances while she still has mental capacity, then the above-board way is to persuade her to make a Lasting Power of Attorney. (Or apply to the Court of Protection if she doesn't have capacity to do that. But social services have previously taken the view that she does have capacity and just spends too much.)

MalMonroe

I think your Mum definitely needs more Mental Health help. She's an addict and she just cannot stop herself. So she does need professional help, although she doesn't see that herself. I don't think she will be able to stop buying things without help.

It's like being a gambler or an alcoholic. She doesn't see any problem and yet she could lose her home.

It sounds like the authorities need to get involved again and your Mum needs some counselling.

There's this info online (6 years old but not irrelevant) - 

https://www.mind.org.uk/information-support/your-stories/spending-money-for-comfort/

As with any other addiction, though your Mum needs to realise that she has a problem before she can be helped. And unfortunately but very understandably, you and your family have been enabling her to carry on spending. It sounds as if your brother's reached the end of his tether and, like you, doesn't see a way forward. So he's given up.

Would your Mum go to see her GP, do you think? For a referral to a therapist. She does need help but doesn't think she does. I do feel for you as I have a sister-in-law who's the same. And my brother, her husband, doesn't know how to stop enabling her. She won't see any professionals and thinks there's nothing wrong but now her mental state is deteriorating. It's really tough because nobody can save her from herself.

I'd try her GP. If she will comply. All the best to you and your family. 

elsien

MattMattMattUK said:

lozzer1701 said:

Hi everyone,

Perhaps the title is an overly simplistic one for what is actually a rather complex situation; but I'll try and make this as succinct as possible...

My mum always has had issues around her spending, to the point my dad (bless him) was working two jobs.  Back when we were teens, it was Franklin Mint; jewellery, books, ornaments.  More latterly, its been shopping channels (particularly QVC).  She honestly has a room full of boxes of items she's ordered.

In mid 2019, Dad died.  Mum was still trying to process it all, when we ended up in lockdown during 2020.  It was certain hard for her, and we did what we could.  There was a point during that year that she actually seemed to realise she had a spending problem, and was even pleased with herself that she had managed to stop watching her beloved shopping channels.  As the country opened back up again, she began focusing on her home and what could be done to improve it. My brother helped her arrange equity release in order to finance the work. It kept her attention, so I was okay with it.  My brother also arranged for people to start the work that required doing.  This was before the loan had actually completed, which did seem daft but as Mum was so eager to get things going I went with the flow.  I was asked by my brother if I pay over £5k for the fitting of new windows at Mum's, and having been assured I wouldn't lose out in the interim, I did so.  He also arranged for a friend of his to begin work in the garden, and paid for this out of his own pocket. 

In hindsight I should have spoke up more at the time, considering the fact that if anything can go wrong, it will.  And it did.  After we'd already paid for work to be completed, and before the money for the loan had come through, Mum had a breakdown.  During a phone call from her lender to tidy up some details, she told them that she no longer required the loan as she'd had a windfall (she hadn't).  More or less within weeks the process fell apart; Mum tried to spend over £20k she didn't actually have on QVC orders (thankfully, a lot of them bounced), her utility bills weren't being paid and she had no money for food. My brother and I were also left out of pocket.

Mum ended under the gaze of the MH team and social services for quite some time.  I managed to get her debit card off her under the pretense that I needed it to set up her online banking (I've managed to deflect her enough to keep hold of it until now), and as I was able to manage her spending that way social services backed off her case, as they were at one point actively considering applying to the courts for control of her finances.  I was able (funnily enough, with Mum's help by this point), to make arrangements with the various utilities to pay off her arrears, cleared off debt collectors, and for the first time she was saving money.  It was going so well, that I believe (and still do), that we could have ultimately paid for the rest of the home improvements and refunds for the work already done with money mum had saved, given time.  I was okay with waiting, and had hoped that Mum would be able to see how much she could achieve with proper money management.  I certainly never discussed another loan with her, and although her 'health' had vastly improved compared to how she was in late 2020, she was still regularly asking me to order items from shopping channels.  I didn't, and convinced her that either they had run out of stock or couriers were losing the parcels.  Her health had improved, but the shopping addiction had returned.  I could see the danger if Mum again tried to take out a loan; she never had an official diagnosis, so what would happen if she fell ill again?

So I was horrified when last year, she announced she had begun the process of taking out another loan.  I contacted my brother (who had shown little interest in Mum's everyday affairs since I took control) for support, hoping that he would realise that Mum taking out a loan considering her history was dangerous and would agree to help persuade Mum not to do it.  He didn't, and despite knowing at least of her health issues couldn't see the problem with it.  The conversation from thereon in degenerated.  Me on one side seeing the dangers of Mum potentially having free access to a large sum of money, him not.  I tried speaking to the lender myself, to try and get them at least to pay more attention to her past credit history and not just her most recent healthy balance sheet, and warned them she had had health issues.  They were quite communicative, up to the point that they found out that the only authority I had was Mum's good will and not an LPA.  They started ignoring me from then on.  The MH team while initially supportive backed away, seemingly suggesting that they could do nothing as spending addiction wasn't a mental health problem.  Mum had been telling social services to go away for long enough, that they more or less have.

Fast forward to today.  I couldn't stop the loan, and she now has about £40k in the bank between that and what I'd helped her to save.  She thinks the authorities are no longer watching her, and is actively asking for her card back, all while telling me regularly that she's missing out on so much; whether that be cosmetics bundles or those gems that are so rare as they've almost been 'mined out'.  My brother has again organised for work to be done on Mum's house, through a contractor friend of his. I've asked for him to hold off, while I go through the process of getting quotes.  I also asked for some kind of written record of the money already spent, plus proper quotes from his friend for Mum's records so we have traceability of her spend  in case she fell ill again.  The result of this was a torrent of abuse and threats.

I'm now feeling lost.  Mum can be very plausible, and there's nothing stopping her ringing up the bank and getting her card back that way.  My brother is happy to take her money with no traceability and doesn't seem to care what the consequences may be if the authorities got involved in her case again.  While the rest of the family agree with my view of things and my approach to handling Mum's business over the last couple of years, none of them will get involved in this.  I need help, and have none.

Any suggestions as to what I can do would be much appreciated.

Is she mentally competent and are you prepared to have her sectioned if she is not? If she is an adult with competency then the choice is hers, that is the threshold for intervention from the authorities. 

You can’t just get someone sectioned, whether mentally competent or not. It really doesn’t work like that. 
There are many people with capacity issues who have no need whatsoever to be in a mental health hospital for treatment. 

OP, this really comes down to whether your mother has capacity around her finances or not. The previous mention of a court application would be because she may have lacked capacity at the time however as her mental health improved her capacity to make her own financial decisions may also have done. The court of protection is only for people who don’t have capacity. The social worker has no power to oversee anything outside of that, whatever your mother may have believed. 

She could do an LPA but if she knows what shes doing it won’t help you because you can’t then step in without her informed consent. Bottom line is she just may not want to do one, fullstop. And you cannot use it to block anything if she does have financial capacity but is making some very poor decisions. 

With the best of motives, you haven’t been honest with her and that could now backfire on you. However much your family might approve, if your mum doesn’t agree then what your are doing isn’t lawful.

Does she still have any involvement with secondary mental health services - if so you could flag up your concerns to them. However they can’t talk to you without her consent if she is well enough to do that, so the information might be all one way. 

Is your mum properly aware of the impact of her spending and the possible future implications? 

Would she be willing to see if she can be referred for counselling to see if she can start to unpick where the need to spend is coming from? 

What’s her social life like since your dad died? 

Are these areas she might want to explore? 

DullGreyGuy

What has the Mental Health team been involved in for? Addiction in itself doesn't normally get a psychiatrist involved or people talking about a person being sectioned. 

Spending more than you can afford, getting into debt for pointless purchases, wanting material gratification today rather than planning for tomorrow may not be sensible ideas but aren't sufficient for someone to lose their independence (or be imprisoned in a hospital). If it were there are many forum members here that would need to be locked up too.

What is your actual concern? She's clinically depressed and hiding it with purchases? Of what will happen when she runs out of loans etc? That she is spending your inheritance? 

Sarahspangles

DullGreyGuy said:

What has the Mental Health team been involved in for? Addiction in itself doesn't normally get a psychiatrist involved or people talking about a person being sectioned. 

Bipolar disorder (what used to be called manic depression) often has periods of overspending/accumulation as a feature and those affected are sometimes admitted whilst they are overtly manic.  Imagining a windfall and failing to care for oneself properly could suggest this, among other things.

BungalowBel

This is probably not relevant but I will mention it anyway.

Certain medications can have rare side effects concerning impulse control. I am on one of these medications and every time I have a review I am asked if I have been gambling or compulsively shopping.  Thankfully I have not.  I am on the medication for Restless Legs Syndrome but it is also used for Parkinsons and  some other things.

I don't know whether your mum is on any of these medications, but thought it worth mentioning.

https://medsafe.govt.nz/profs/PUArticles/Dopamine.htm#:~:text=Other compulsions can include compulsive,rewarded by these excessive behaviours.