Leak in main waste pipe

arciere

I am dealing with a suspected leak in the main waste pipe. The pipe serves two converted flats (2 flats in total). Both properties have a share of the freehold plus their own leasehold agreements, which states that the waste pipe, which serves the entire building, is the responsibility of the freeholder.

There was another, different leak a few weeks ago, which was fixed shortly after. Since the first leak was fixed, the downstairs neighbours continued to complain that the waste pipe was wet and there was a bit of water around it. Having called a builder again, he was unable to find the source of the leak, so we suspected that it might actually come from the roof (the waste pipe goes all the way up to the roof). This is also because the leak appeared to have stopped during a 2-week period with no rain.

Fast forward a couple of nights ago, we get a message from the neighbour saying that the water around the pipe 'is foul' and asked us to 'stop using your toilet'.

Unfortunately we have a very bad relation with them, also the police had to be involved recently when the lady downstairs started to act violently. They are now threatening legal action and things like that because, according to them, this is a health hazard (the waste pipe is hidden behind a panel inside a cupboard). They are asking us to approve repairs with a builder that hasn't even provided a quote or approximation of how much the works will cost.

For a number of reasons, we would like to have a fixed quote to discuss first (or at least a rough estimate), we are not prepared to approve repairs that could potentially cost thousands of pounds without knowing in advance.

What are our rights? Does Section 20 still apply, even if they claim these are emergency works? If there is a leak, we obviously must repair it, but I don't think it's fair to be asked on the spot to approve repairs for literally tomorrow (Sunday). What are the legal consequences if we say, for example "we need a few days to ask around for more quotes"?

subjecttocontract

Buildings insurance ?

grumbler

Most likely the pipe is blocked downstream and needs unblocking.

arciere

subjecttocontract said:

Buildings insurance ?

We made a claim for a different leak, that is now sorted. That claim was stopped by the neighbours because they didn't want to pay an increased premium, which made sense for them because they paid zero for the works to fix that leak (thousands of pounds).
So unfortunately, even if they say we will go with the insurance, I know it probably won't happen and we will still need to pay beforehand.

arciere

grumbler said:

Most likely the pipe is blocked downstream and needs unblocking.

Another builder has checked it today and apparently it is leaking where a waste pipe joins the main pipe that goes all the way underground.

grumbler

arciere said:

grumbler said:

Most likely the pipe is blocked downstream and needs unblocking.

Another builder has checked it today and apparently it is leaking where a waste pipe joins the main pipe that goes all the way underground.

Two 110mm pipes joining? Is the leak underground then? If the joint is in the flat then it probably leaks because the underground pipe is  blocked.

eddddy

arciere said:

Both properties have a share of the freehold plus their own leasehold agreements
...

What are our rights? Does Section 20 still apply, even if they claim these are emergency works? If there is a leak, we obviously must repair it, but I don't think it's fair to be asked on the spot to approve repairs for literally tomorrow (Sunday). What are the legal consequences if we say, for example "we need a few days to ask around for more quotes"?

So you jointly own a freehold building with your neighbour. Did you sign a 'declaration of trust' with the other person, when you became joint owners?  

That would say something like "If we can't agree on how a repair etc should be done, we agree to call in a chartered building surveyor to decide how the repair should be done. The surveyor's decision will be binding on both of us"

(And did you think through the potential challenges of jointly owning a building with a stranger?)


If you don't have a declaration of trust like that, and you can't jointly agree on how to do repairs to the building that you jointly own, it's not an easy situation to resolve. It's pretty much deadlock. A section 20 consultation won't help you to reach agreement.


Potentially, I guess you could take legal action which might result in a tribunal taking responsibility for managing the building away from both of you - and the tribunal would take over control of your building by appointing a manager. And hopefully, the manager would then make sensible decisions about repairs, etc.

But by far the best outcome would be to try to discuss this and reach an amicable outcome.

arciere

grumbler said:

arciere said:

grumbler said:

Most likely the pipe is blocked downstream and needs unblocking.

Another builder has checked it today and apparently it is leaking where a waste pipe joins the main pipe that goes all the way underground.

Two 110mm pipes joining? Is the leak underground then? If the joint is in the flat then it probably leaks because the underground pipe is  blocked.

My understanding was that the leak is where one of the internal pipes (presumably the one that comes from the toilet), joins the bigger, main waste pipe. This is basically underneath our floor and a couple of inches above the downstairs flat's ceiling. There's nothing visible from upstairs.

arciere

eddddy said:

arciere said:

Both properties have a share of the freehold plus their own leasehold agreements
...

What are our rights? Does Section 20 still apply, even if they claim these are emergency works? If there is a leak, we obviously must repair it, but I don't think it's fair to be asked on the spot to approve repairs for literally tomorrow (Sunday). What are the legal consequences if we say, for example "we need a few days to ask around for more quotes"?

So you jointly own a freehold building with your neighbour. Did you sign a 'declaration of trust' with the other person, when you became joint owners?  

Yes, all it says is that Flat 1 owns 50% and Flat 2 owns 50%

eddddy said:

That would say something like "If we can't agree on how a repair etc should be done, we agree to call in a chartered building surveyor to decide how the repair should be done. The surveyor's decision will be binding on both of us"

(And did you think through the potential challenges of jointly owning a building with a stranger?)

 Nothing is specified, other than what share we hold. And no, we didn't think it through because it was our first property and our knowledge was very limited. We trusted the lawyer's judgement and advice when he said that for two flats this is what is normally done.

eddddy said:

If you don't have a declaration of trust like that, and you can't jointly agree on how to do repairs to the building that you jointly own, it's not an easy situation to resolve. It's pretty much deadlock. A section 20 consultation won't help you to reach agreement.

But by far the best outcome would be to try to discuss this and reach an amicable outcome.

As I said it's a long and sad story unfortunately. We agreed to the works today because the situation had become unbearably stressful. We have been constantly threatened with legal action, a few weeks ago the lady vandalized our front door and left blood on it (for something not related to this leak), they even called the police on us yesterday because of this leak (the gentleman I spoke to was like 'I don't know why they are calling us, this is a civil matter, nothing to do with the police').

In regards to Section 20, my hope was that we could use it to at least have some time to evaluate the scope of the works and get quotes, instead of rushing to a decision in (literally) 24 hours or less because of constant threats.

The cost of the repair should be under £1,000, but I am trying to understand if there is anything I can legally do, retrospectively and for future issues, to make sure that we have a say in what happens without having to worry about legal actions or threats.

grumbler

arciere said:

grumbler said:

arciere said:

grumbler said:

Most likely the pipe is blocked downstream and needs unblocking.

Another builder has checked it today and apparently it is leaking where a waste pipe joins the main pipe that goes all the way underground.

Two 110mm pipes joining? Is the leak underground then? If the joint is in the flat then it probably leaks because the underground pipe is  blocked.

My understanding was that the leak is where one of the internal pipes (presumably the one that comes from the toilet), joins the bigger, main waste pipe. This is basically underneath our floor and a couple of inches above the downstairs flat's ceiling. There's nothing visible from upstairs.

I'm no expert, but this sounds to me like your responsibility if the seal is faulty. However, even with a good seal it can leak if the pipe is blocked downstream.

Waste pipes have to be fitted with a small gradient and generally  aren't supposed to hold any standing water.

arciere

grumbler said:

arciere said:

grumbler said:

arciere said:

grumbler said:

Most likely the pipe is blocked downstream and needs unblocking.

Another builder has checked it today and apparently it is leaking where a waste pipe joins the main pipe that goes all the way underground.

Two 110mm pipes joining? Is the leak underground then? If the joint is in the flat then it probably leaks because the underground pipe is  blocked.

My understanding was that the leak is where one of the internal pipes (presumably the one that comes from the toilet), joins the bigger, main waste pipe. This is basically underneath our floor and a couple of inches above the downstairs flat's ceiling. There's nothing visible from upstairs.

I'm no expert, but this sounds to me like your responsibility if the seal is faulty. However, even with a good seal it can leak if the pipe is blocked downstream.

I'm not an expert either, but what I could understand from the builder (I didn't speak to him much because he was doing everything from downstairs) is that they want to cut the main pipe and fix it somehow, which tells me that the leak is within the main pipe itself.

Regardless, I'm not arguing that we shouldn't be paying for it, my point is that they demanded immediate payment for the works (which are due today), under the 'threat' of legal actions, police calls, etc. (and speaking of threats, we definitely know what else they are capable of)