Lifetime Gym Membership

Exodi

DullGreyGuy said:

Exodi said:
I'm quite suprised about your response on this - is there any ambiguity over what a 'lifetime' means in this context? I think a lifetime = a lifetime isn't just the OP's definition.

A contractually defined term can mean whatever the contract states, if its not defined in the contract then it reverts to plain english.

So here is an example of a contractual definition of lifetime that is different to the natural lifetime of the person:

Lifetime means the time that the Owner owns the single family detached residence on which the Product was installed. For any other type of building or structure that is not a single family detached residence, Lifetime means a period of 30 years from the date of Product installation on the Property.

They've introduce a cap of 30 years by making it a defined term in the contract


Personally I'd be asking the gym to confirm which clauses it is relying on to either state the limit is 10 years or that allow it to change the term to 10 years.

This is why I specifically said 'in this context'.

In my other reply in this thread, I said: "I could understand if this was context specific ambiguity (for example "over the lifetime of your washing machine" - but 'lifetime' is not intended to refer to a product, but a person.

And even if they had defined a "lifetime" of someone that goes to the gym as 10 years in their contract, I'd suggest this is misleading advertising at best. You can't advertise "LIFETIME MEMBERSHIP", then put in small print in a contract "Lifetime means not a lifetime" as it's clear how most consumers would interpret it.

born_again

Exodi said:

Is lifetime membership ambiguous?

Very. As there is nothing to define exactly what "Lifetime" relates too.

Best example is Garmin & their sat nav's, with free lifetime map updates. Defined down to when the device can no longer handle the size of the updates, or becomes a no longer supported model.

In the gyms case, it could be the person using the gym, till it changes hands or any other reason that can be thought up. Could even say that they had to buy new equipment. As such the lifetime referred to the old equipment.🤷‍♀️

Lifetime is a weasel word that ASA should be banning unless it has a clearly defined statement on just what it relates to.

DullGreyGuy

Exodi said:

DullGreyGuy said:

Exodi said:
I'm quite suprised about your response on this - is there any ambiguity over what a 'lifetime' means in this context? I think a lifetime = a lifetime isn't just the OP's definition.

A contractually defined term can mean whatever the contract states, if its not defined in the contract then it reverts to plain english.

So here is an example of a contractual definition of lifetime that is different to the natural lifetime of the person:

Lifetime means the time that the Owner owns the single family detached residence on which the Product was installed. For any other type of building or structure that is not a single family detached residence, Lifetime means a period of 30 years from the date of Product installation on the Property.

They've introduce a cap of 30 years by making it a defined term in the contract


Personally I'd be asking the gym to confirm which clauses it is relying on to either state the limit is 10 years or that allow it to change the term to 10 years.

This is why I specifically said 'in this context'.

In my other reply in this thread, I said: "I could understand if this was context specific ambiguity (for example "over the lifetime of your washing machine" - but 'lifetime' is not intended to refer to a product, but a person.

And even if they had defined a "lifetime" of someone that goes to the gym as 10 years in their contract, I'd suggest this is misleading advertising at best. You can't advertise "LIFETIME MEMBERSHIP", then put in small print in a contract "Lifetime means not a lifetime" as it's clear how most consumers would interpret it.

In this context there is uncertainty for us because we havent seen the contract and so cannot say if its a defined term or not. Assuming its not then I'd agree that it'd be difficult to imagine any other interpretation however its also a bit superfluous in the terms of the contract as it'd simply need no end date specified in which case it naturally dies with the demise of either party to the contract.

Ultimately you'd need to see the advertising to see how clear that there is a cap on what lifetime means. Direct Line used to run an advert that said if you dont make a change your premiums wont go up next year. The footer of the advert clarified that it was subject to terms and changes meant making alterations to the details, making a claim or a movement in IPT. The stated T&Cs clarified further that it was any change to a rating factor so basically everything other than changing your name or email address.

Aylesbury_Duck

Exodi said:

Aylesbury_Duck said:

As always with these things, the devil's in the details.  Are there no terms that define "lifetime" in the contract, at all?  If there aren't, then it would ultimately be down to a judge's opinion.

As I see it, unless you're prepared to 'go legal' or imply that you might, you can't enforce your definition of 'lifetime'.

I'm quite suprised about your response on this - is there any ambiguity over what a 'lifetime' means in this context? I think a lifetime = a lifetime isn't just the OP's definition.

I could understand if this was context specific ambiguity (for example "over the lifetime of your washing machine" or "free nandos during your student lifetime") but this doesn't seem to be the case here. Many businesses sell lifetime memberships that do what they say on the tin.

I'm an avid gym-goer, and there's no precedent (that I'm aware of) that a gym-goers lifetime is 10 years? If it applied to how long the average person uses a gym membership, I'd imagine it would be a matter of weeks/months!

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Any ambiguity in a contract typically favours the party that didn't write it.

Is lifetime membership ambiguous?

Yes, it is ambiguous if it's not defined.  The lifetime of what or whom?  The OP?  The gym?  For what it's worth I suspect a judge would go with the lifetime of the OP, but it certainly isn't an absolute definition.  That's why I asked about any definitions in the contract.

The debate on this thread is plenty of evidence of ambiguity, for a start.

Exodi

Aylesbury_Duck said:

Exodi said:

Aylesbury_Duck said:

As always with these things, the devil's in the details.  Are there no terms that define "lifetime" in the contract, at all?  If there aren't, then it would ultimately be down to a judge's opinion.

As I see it, unless you're prepared to 'go legal' or imply that you might, you can't enforce your definition of 'lifetime'.

I'm quite suprised about your response on this - is there any ambiguity over what a 'lifetime' means in this context? I think a lifetime = a lifetime isn't just the OP's definition.

I could understand if this was context specific ambiguity (for example "over the lifetime of your washing machine" or "free nandos during your student lifetime") but this doesn't seem to be the case here. Many businesses sell lifetime memberships that do what they say on the tin.

I'm an avid gym-goer, and there's no precedent (that I'm aware of) that a gym-goers lifetime is 10 years? If it applied to how long the average person uses a gym membership, I'd imagine it would be a matter of weeks/months!

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Any ambiguity in a contract typically favours the party that didn't write it.

Is lifetime membership ambiguous?

Yes, it is ambiguous if it's not defined.  The lifetime of what or whom?  The OP?  The gym?  For what it's worth I suspect a judge would go with the lifetime of the OP, but it certainly isn't an absolute definition.  That's why I asked about any definitions in the contract.

The debate on this thread is plenty of evidence of ambiguity, for a start.

I don't want to turn this into a long ramble, so I'll say I agree very much with your suspicion a judge would interpret it as the lifetime of the OP (in the absence of a contractual definition - as confirmed by the OP).

There has only been 2/3 posters stating that lifetime is ambiguous - half the posts have been from the OP and myself stating that it's not.

I understand and respect the technical answer of "it depends on any contractual definition". In the absence of this, I'd say it's a stretch to suggest lifetime is the least bit confusing, or refers to pieces of furniture. As said before, other businesses offer lifetime memberships that last for the lifetime of the member - there is no confusion with these.

As an example, the National Trust sells life memberships: https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/membership/life-membership

I can't see that they define what 'life membership' means - though I don't think this means it is confusing or ambigious (though you may?), and suspect people would generally interpret what life or lifetime membership means in the same way.

I suspect if they suddenly suggested it was 10 years, and linked it to one of their buildings, people would be in uproar and the defense of "well we didn't state 'who or what' life we were referring to" wouldn't wash.

DullGreyGuy

Exodi said:
As an example, the National Trust sells life memberships: https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/membership/life-membership

I can't see that they define what 'life membership' means - though I don't think this means it is confusing or ambigious (though you may?), and suspect people would generally interpret what life or lifetime membership means in the same way.

I suspect if they suddenly suggested it was 10 years, and linked it to one of their buildings, people would be in uproar and the defense of "well we didn't state 'who or what' life we were referring to" wouldn't wash.

I cannot find the terms of membership at all for the NT, only terms for using their website.

To be honest, a lifetime Membership with the NT does have the potential to be ambiguous if you say buy the Family Life it states:

For two adults and all their children or grandchildren up to the age of 18. Adults must be lifetime partners, living at the same address. Under 5s go free.

So take a couple that met in later life and already had kids/grandkids from previous relationships... if one adult dies do the that person's kids/grandkids still get to access (ie the step kids of the surviving member)? If both adults die can the kids/grandkids still use it whilst under 18? It doesn't say under 18s have to be accompanied. 

Also despite being a "Lifetime Family" the children are only covered until their 18th birthday and not their lifetime. 

And dont get me started on their use of "For two people, who are lifetime partners, living at the same address"... what happens if they break up? Or stop living at the same address?

Grumpy_chap

ozzw247 said:

I intend to see the club manager and ask for the terms they used to change it from lifetime - I think reasonably assumed to be my lifetime, not my sofas! 

If you spend a lot of time in the gym, your lifetime might extend.  So might your sofa's lifetime.

user1977

DullGreyGuy said:

Exodi said:
As an example, the National Trust sells life memberships: https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/membership/life-membership

I can't see that they define what 'life membership' means - though I don't think this means it is confusing or ambigious (though you may?), and suspect people would generally interpret what life or lifetime membership means in the same way.

I suspect if they suddenly suggested it was 10 years, and linked it to one of their buildings, people would be in uproar and the defense of "well we didn't state 'who or what' life we were referring to" wouldn't wash.

And dont get me started on their use of "For two people, who are lifetime partners, living at the same address"... what happens if they break up? 

Although I don't think there was any contractual entitlement to it, my ex and I got our joint life memberships of both Historic Scotland and NTS split into individual life memberships....(representing a discount on buying separate life memberships, though some may view it as an extreme money-saving tactic)

DullGreyGuy

user1977 said:

DullGreyGuy said:

Exodi said:
As an example, the National Trust sells life memberships: https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/membership/life-membership

I can't see that they define what 'life membership' means - though I don't think this means it is confusing or ambigious (though you may?), and suspect people would generally interpret what life or lifetime membership means in the same way.

I suspect if they suddenly suggested it was 10 years, and linked it to one of their buildings, people would be in uproar and the defense of "well we didn't state 'who or what' life we were referring to" wouldn't wash.

And dont get me started on their use of "For two people, who are lifetime partners, living at the same address"... what happens if they break up? 

Although I don't think there was any contractual entitlement to it, my ex and I got our joint life memberships of both Historic Scotland and NTS split into individual life memberships....(representing a discount on buying separate life memberships, though some may view it as an extreme money-saving tactic)

Pity you didn't have kids to be able to say how that bit functions

Jonboy_1984

Would it be cynical to estimate that 8-10 years is the average lifetime of a private gym round here???