Help! Party Wall removed without permission

jonnydeppiwish!

penners324 said:

Email the planning enforcement team at the council. Also your local Councillor.

And that’s going to do what? Party walls are nothing to do with them.

macman

penners324 said:

Email the planning enforcement team at the council. Also your local Councillor.

It's not a planning issue, based on what we've been told so far .
The only way to stop the work is to obtain an injunction, which can be a very expensive action to undertakea id the neighbour counter-sues,, and completely pointless, since the demolition has already taken place and there is no restriction on the neighbour demolishing up to the party wall.
It's not clear if the wall demolished was simply adjacent to the boundary (i.e.built up to the boundary line), or actually straddled it. The former would not be a party wall.
Unfortunately, the PW Act is a completely flawed piece of legislation, because it offers no means of enforcement except for a civil action.

Simonon77

Er, I think they removed a "party fence wall", not the actual party wall that the house structures share. 

Sounds like the OP's builder built so close to the garden wall that they couldn't render it.   That's actually pretty shoddy building work and it makes this far more nuanced that you seem to think. 

The act enables people to build, it doesn't allow other neighbours to impose unreasonable objections.  I don't think either party comes up smelling of roses here but of course it's not criminal. Whilst there should have been discussion, the act would allow a
party fence wall to be removed. 

Why so rude to devoncop?  

This thread is full of people with no idea at all what they're talking about.   The OP needs to read the layperson's guidance to the party wall act and have a reasonable chat with a party wall surveyor about their situation and see if something can be salvaged, whilst understanding that sandwiching a party fence wall between two extensions is really bad building practice and wouldn't be signed off by a PWS.  

The OP has some responsibility for their own house in this case because whoever built the conservatory clearly didn't use a PWS either.  (No surprise there, what with conservatories often being used as an excuse to build badly!)

While the wall has been removed would be a good opportunity for the OP to get their bits properly rendered and sealed. Perhaps even ask the neighbour if he can get his builders to sort it out seeing as they are working there anyway.

I think its a bit of a non issue anyway. If the neighbour had left the old wall, the OPs extension and conservatory still wouldn't have been finished properly. 

ThisIsWeird

Doozergirl said:

ThisIsWeird said:

devoncop22 said:

ThisIsWeird said:

If you are telling us that this neighbour has effectively taken down a wall of your house, exposing that room to the elements, then that - I believe - is effectively 'criminal property damage', and your first call should have been to the police.

As a recently retired Police Officer I can assure you police will have no interest or responsibility in dealing with this at all.

It is a civil dispute over building work.

The Criminal Damage Act of 1971 specifically excludes actions done with lawful authority or reasonable excuse. Building work that is disputed comes under this exclusion and the civil law deals with it.

Great. I'm just about to take a sledge hammer to my neighbour's house.

You did read what I said? IF this neighbour has literally removed a wall from the OP's house, exposing the insides to the elements, and done so without their express permission, under what 'reasonable excuse' could this have been done?

I kind of doubt that is literally what's happened, even tho' the OP has implied it is, which is why I asked the OP to clarify, but if it is anywhere close to the truth, I can only be pleased you have retired. 

Er, I think they removed a "party fence wall", not the actual party wall that the house structures share. 

Sounds like the OP's builder built so close to the garden wall that they couldn't render it.   That's actually pretty shoddy building work and it makes this far more nuanced that you seem to think. 

The act enables people to build, it doesn't allow other neighbours to impose unreasonable objections.  I don't think either party comes up smelling of roses here but of course it's not criminal. Whilst there should have been discussion, the act would allow a
party fence wall to be removed. 

Why so rude to devoncop?  

This thread is full of people with no idea at all what they're talking about.   The OP needs to read the layperson's guidance to the party wall act and have a reasonable chat with a party wall surveyor about their situation and see if something can be salvaged, whilst understanding that sandwiching a party fence wall between two extensions is really bad building practice and wouldn't be signed off by a PWS.  

The OP has some responsibility for their own house in this case because whoever built the conservatory clearly didn't use a PWS either.  (No surprise there, what with conservatories often being used as an excuse to build badly!)

Yes, I can see that my sarcy reply was rude to DevonCop - sorry DevonCop. I have to 'fess I was a bit irked by having to reply to his/her non sequitur.

I also see that the situation isn't as the OP intimated, or as I'd assumed :-(

JuliaMary_2

HI all - thank you for your replies.  The good news - we're covered under house insurance. 
We've issued a letter and they've offered to render/waterproof our exposed wall. 
They advise they are building within their land i.e. just the other side of the party wall, however, whilst our extension wall will be protected and so will their new build extension we potentially will have a small inaccessible gap between the buildings (width of a brick or just over). 
This could lead to pests, infestations, debris, and things getting trapped (birds, cats etc etc).  We therefore have asked for time to agree a solution - this is also a little complicated by the fact that we have an old flat roof extension connected to a sloped glass roof conservatory and they will have a new pitched tile roof.  Both are at ground floor level.
Ideally we will have our wall rendered and then agree on the best solution to manage the gap - however, we need some time for our surveyor to consider this and advise so that work is done to a good standard and agreed by both sides.  
Unfortunatley, they want to start concreting and building at ground level in next few days - so we are feeling rushed into agreeing a solution (or even being forced into no solution if the build continues).
We are hoping we can agree a solution but it's not ideal and hence why we've had to issue the letter. 

CSI_Yorkshire

JuliaMary_2 said:

HI all - thank you for your replies.  The good news - we're covered under house insurance. 
We've issued a letter and they've offered to render/waterproof our exposed wall. 
They advise they are building within their land i.e. just the other side of the party wall, however, whilst our extension wall will be protected and so will their new build extension we potentially will have a small inaccessible gap between the buildings (width of a brick or just over). 
This could lead to pests, infestations, debris, and things getting trapped (birds, cats etc etc).  We therefore have asked for time to agree a solution - this is also a little complicated by the fact that we have an old flat roof extension connected to a sloped glass roof conservatory and they will have a new pitched tile roof.  Both are at ground floor level.
Ideally we will have our wall rendered and then agree on the best solution to manage the gap - however, we need some time for our surveyor to consider this and advise so that work is done to a good standard and agreed by both sides.  
Unfortunatley, they want to start concreting and building at ground level in next few days - so we are feeling rushed into agreeing a solution (or even being forced into no solution if the build continues).
We are hoping we can agree a solution but it's not ideal and hence why we've had to issue the letter. 

Inaccessible doesn't sound very good to me.  How do they think they will maintain their wall (or you yours)?

sevenhills

Not easy agreeing a course of action between two neighbours, who don't know each other. The outcome should help the OP. If only discussions had taken place when they had the plans.

Simonon77

JuliaMary_2 said:

HI all - thank you for your replies.  The good news - we're covered under house insurance. 
We've issued a letter and they've offered to render/waterproof our exposed wall. 
They advise they are building within their land i.e. just the other side of the party wall, however, whilst our extension wall will be protected and so will their new build extension we potentially will have a small inaccessible gap between the buildings (width of a brick or just over). 
This could lead to pests, infestations, debris, and things getting trapped (birds, cats etc etc).  We therefore have asked for time to agree a solution - this is also a little complicated by the fact that we have an old flat roof extension connected to a sloped glass roof conservatory and they will have a new pitched tile roof.  Both are at ground floor level.
Ideally we will have our wall rendered and then agree on the best solution to manage the gap - however, we need some time for our surveyor to consider this and advise so that work is done to a good standard and agreed by both sides.  
Unfortunatley, they want to start concreting and building at ground level in next few days - so we are feeling rushed into agreeing a solution (or even being forced into no solution if the build continues).
We are hoping we can agree a solution but it's not ideal and hence why we've had to issue the letter. 

Good that they have offered to render your wall. The gap isn't really a problem, it can easily be blocked up around the edges to stop anything getting trapped in there or leaves etc.. falling in and still be open enough so air can get in so it doesn't cause damp. Having a small gap between neighbours extensions isn't that unusual 

Grizebeck

GDB2222 said:

Grizebeck said:

GDB2222 said:

One option is to apply for an injunction to prevent the work progressing, but it is expensive. 

It costs around £320 for an application.

That is just the court fee? Unless the op knows their way around the court system, they would need legal help.

 I noticed that your sig says Lay Rep in the County Court dealing with a variety of civil cases. 

Out of interest, what would a lay rep charge for dealing with this?

Hello
It is not something i could assist with in court as injunctions are not "tracked" issues. I deal with cases on the small claims track only where i have rights of audience under the lay rep orders of 1999
In this kind of case an injunction could be issued quite easily as a "litigant in person"
But good to see the OP seems to getting some kind of resolution.

ThisIsWeird

JuliaMary_2 said:

HI all - thank you for your replies.  The good news - we're covered under house insurance. 
We've issued a letter and they've offered to render/waterproof our exposed wall. 
They advise they are building within their land i.e. just the other side of the party wall, however, whilst our extension wall will be protected and so will their new build extension we potentially will have a small inaccessible gap between the buildings (width of a brick or just over). 
This could lead to pests, infestations, debris, and things getting trapped (birds, cats etc etc).  We therefore have asked for time to agree a solution - this is also a little complicated by the fact that we have an old flat roof extension connected to a sloped glass roof conservatory and they will have a new pitched tile roof.  Both are at ground floor level.
Ideally we will have our wall rendered and then agree on the best solution to manage the gap - however, we need some time for our surveyor to consider this and advise so that work is done to a good standard and agreed by both sides.  
Unfortunatley, they want to start concreting and building at ground level in next few days - so we are feeling rushed into agreeing a solution (or even being forced into no solution if the build continues).
We are hoping we can agree a solution but it's not ideal and hence why we've had to issue the letter. 

That is good news indeed, JM.

I have to say I'm still very confused about the wall that was taken down, what its purpose was, who it belonged to, where it sat relative to the true boundary, how close it was to your extension wall.

You refer to it as a 'party wall', presumably because it's right on the boundary? If it isn't on - straddling - the boundary, on whose side was it? What purpose did this wall serve - are we talking about a 'garden' wall, or a wall that's part of a building? And when they took this 'party wall' down, it left your un-rendered extension wall exposed? Just how tight was this removed wall to your extension wall - was there a gap? Any chance of a photo to explain better?

It is good of them to offer to weatherproof that unfinished wall of yours. Depending on what this 'party wall' actually was, I suspect there was a good chance there was no onus or requirement for them to do this.

Yes, you need to think through the options now, but please be considerate to your neighbours who are in a difficult building situation, where delays can be very costly and might even mean their builders having to move (hopefully temporarily) on to another job. Although it does sound as tho' they could have communicated what was going on better, I am not entirely sure they have done much 'wrong'. (Again, it depends on the status of this 'party wall').

Who to get the best advice on the solution from? I guess a surveyor. So I wonder if you'd consider what many on here feel is the best solution in such cases, and that is to absolutely avoid having a tiny inaccessible gap between the properties, especially as your main houses are already joined?

A way to think of this is as if neither of you currently had an extension, but one of you wished to do so; where would be the best location for the new 'party' wall? The consensus is that it sits exactly on the boundary, straddling it. Yes, one neighbour could consider this as a loss of ~2 or so inches off their land, but what it means in practice is should they also wish to add an extension later on, then (a) it'll save them the cost of one wall, (b) they would also be able to maximise their extension width by not having to leave a gap, (c) it'll improve the insulation value of both properties, and (d) it should reduce the maintenance required to the roof ends, and simplify issues like gutters, soffits, etc. Ie, I understand it to be, by a considerable margin, the 'best' solution. (Obviously only applies to properties already joined - semi or terraced.)

I would recommend, therefore, giving serious consideration to achieving the closest to this solution as being the best for you, as well as your neighbour - ie, permit them to build up to and against your existing extension wall, and have the work overseen and approved by a Party Wall Surveyor who the neighbour would need to pay for.

They would ensure that any concerns such as noise, etc, are handled correctly.

If you begrudge them gaining a brick-width of your land, then perhaps suggest they add a further layer of block or brick between the two of you, or to seal off that gap with acoustic insulation in between. But in any case, please try and avoid a gap! You'd also be able to examine their plans for how to join the roofs, guttering, and other detail.

Done properly, this is the solution.

There have been a number of examples on this forum of issues arising from 'gaps' left between extensions; arguments over gutters, drainage, and roof overhangs, how to gain access for maintenance, and other things that life is simply better without!

Also consider what 'loss' such a solution would actually cause you? I can't think of any, only pluses. Including getting on with your neighbour.

(My opinion only, of course, but based on a number of threads on here.)