old style ESA and income?

darto150

Hi

From what I understand, if working on old style ESA, then it has to be less than 16h/week(Do they mean not more than 16h/week.. i.e. 16h is fine?), and no more than £167 each week.  

More than that and the claim stops.

Within that, and it won't affect anything, is that correct?

Something that puzzles me is that  £167/week looks like £8.6K a year.. Would they really not reduce benefits if somebody earnt £8.5K/year?

In the past, before Universal Credit, would they have said that anything over £167/week would affect benefits? In the past, at what point would it affect benefits?

calcotti

The Permitted Work rules are the same for both old style and new style ESA.

It will be less than 16 hours/week.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/employment-and-support-allowance-permitted-work-form/permitted-work-factsheet
Working 16 hours/week ends ESA entitlement.

All earnings from Permitted Work are ignored and do not affect the ESA amount paid. If earnings are over £167 no work is no longer Permitted Work and entitlement to ESA ends.

Newcad

darto150 said:

Hi

From what I understand, if working on old style ESA, then it has to be less than 16h/week(Do they mean not more than 16h/week.. i.e. 16h is fine?),

It's an odd one because as calcotti says the ESA legislation (both Old and New styles) states 'less than' 16 hours per week., or earning 'less than' 16x National Minimum Wage.

It's unclear just why ESA legislation says it that way, other similar clauses in other benefit legislations tend to say 'no more than' rather than 'less than'.

When you think sensibly about it then 15 hours, 59 minutes, and 59 seconds is 'less than' 16 hours.

Generally they do tend to accept exactly 16 hours as Permitted Work.
(But I have seen one case where the DWP tried to say otherwise until overruled by the tribunal).

calcotti

Newcad said:

darto150 said:

Hi

From what I understand, if working on old style ESA, then it has to be less than 16h/week(Do they mean not more than 16h/week.. i.e. 16h is fine?),

It's an odd one because as calcotti says the ESA legislation (both Old and New styles) states 'less than' 16 hours per week., or earning 'less than' 16x National Minimum Wage.

It's unclear just why ESA legislation says it that way, other similar clauses in other benefit legislations tend to say 'no more than' rather than 'less than'.

That’s not correct and is not what I said. For earnings it does not say “earning 'less than' 16x National Minimum Wage”, it says “ earning 'not exceed more than' 16x National Minimum Wage”

TELLIT01

Newcad said:

Generally they do tend to accept exactly 16 hours as Permitted Work.
(But I have seen one case where the DWP tried to say otherwise until overruled by the tribunal).

Legislation states 'less than 16 hours per week'.  If a claimant actually works 16 hours they are not complying with requirements and certainly can have their benefits stopped.  It really is not worth the risk.

Newcad

calcotti said:

Newcad said:

darto150 said:

Hi

From what I understand, if working on old style ESA, then it has to be less than 16h/week(Do they mean not more than 16h/week.. i.e. 16h is fine?),

It's an odd one because as calcotti says the ESA legislation (both Old and New styles) states 'less than' 16 hours per week., or earning 'less than' 16x National Minimum Wage.

It's unclear just why ESA legislation says it that way, other similar clauses in other benefit legislations tend to say 'no more than' rather than 'less than'.

That’s not correct and is not what I said. For earnings it does not say “earning 'less than' 16x National Minimum Wage”, it says “ earning 'not exceed more than' 16x National Minimum Wage”

Thanks for the correction.
We can tend to get a bit slack with the actual wording at times, even DWP guidance and factsheets do it. (There isn't any 'more than' in the legislation.

Referring to the actual legislation(s) hours worked are 'less than' - earnings are 'do not exceed' in Old Style ESA and 'does not exceed' in New Style ESA.

The Old Style ESA legislation, the EMPLOYMENT AND SUPPORT ALLOWANCE REGULATIONS 2008, revised version 31/3/2030 (sic), states at regualtion 45(4):
"Work which is done for less than 16 hours a week, for which earnings in any
week do not exceed 16 x National Minimum Wage, subject to paragraph (9A),"

The New Style ESA legislation, the EMPLOYMENT AND SUPPORT ALLOWANCE REGULATIONS 2013, revised version 31/3/2019, has different but similar wording at regulation 39(c)
"work which is done for less than 16 hours a week, for which total earnings in
any week does not exceed 16 multiplied by the National Minimum Wage,
subject to paragraph (4),"

poppy12345

Newcad said:

calcotti said:

Newcad said:

darto150 said:

Hi

From what I understand, if working on old style ESA, then it has to be less than 16h/week(Do they mean not more than 16h/week.. i.e. 16h is fine?),

It's an odd one because as calcotti says the ESA legislation (both Old and New styles) states 'less than' 16 hours per week., or earning 'less than' 16x National Minimum Wage.

It's unclear just why ESA legislation says it that way, other similar clauses in other benefit legislations tend to say 'no more than' rather than 'less than'.

That’s not correct and is not what I said. For earnings it does not say “earning 'less than' 16x National Minimum Wage”, it says “ earning 'not exceed more than' 16x National Minimum Wage”

Thanks for the correction.
We can tend to get a bit slack with the actual wording at times, even DWP guidance and factsheets do it. (There isn't any 'more than' in the legislation.

Referring to the actual legislation(s) hours worked are 'less than' - earnings are 'do not exceed' in Old Style ESA and 'does not exceed' in New Style ESA.

The Old Style ESA legislation, the EMPLOYMENT AND SUPPORT ALLOWANCE REGULATIONS 2008, revised version 31/3/2030 (sic), states at regualtion 45(4):
"Work which is done for less than 16 hours a week, for which earnings in any
week do not exceed 16 x National Minimum Wage, subject to paragraph (9A),"

The New Style ESA legislation, the EMPLOYMENT AND SUPPORT ALLOWANCE REGULATIONS 2013, revised version 31/3/2019, has different but similar wording at regulation 39(c)
"work which is done for less than 16 hours a week, for which total earnings in
any week does not exceed 16 multiplied by the National Minimum Wage,
subject to paragraph (4),"

I don't think calcotti was slack with their wording at all. You're making this more complicated than it actually is. The permitted work rules are exactly the same regardless of which ESA you're claiming.

calcotti

Newcad said:

calcotti said:

Newcad said:

darto150 said:

Hi

From what I understand, if working on old style ESA, then it has to be less than 16h/week(Do they mean not more than 16h/week.. i.e. 16h is fine?),

It's an odd one because as calcotti says the ESA legislation (both Old and New styles) states 'less than' 16 hours per week., or earning 'less than' 16x National Minimum Wage.

It's unclear just why ESA legislation says it that way, other similar clauses in other benefit legislations tend to say 'no more than' rather than 'less than'.

That’s not correct and is not what I said. For earnings it does not say “earning 'less than' 16x National Minimum Wage”, it says “ earning 'not exceed more than' 16x National Minimum Wage”

Thanks for the correction.
We can tend to get a bit slack with the actual wording at times, even DWP guidance and factsheets do it. (There isn't any 'more than' in the legislation.

Referring to the actual legislation(s) hours worked are 'less than' - earnings are 'do not exceed' in Old Style ESA and 'does not exceed' in New Style ESA.

The Old Style ESA legislation, the EMPLOYMENT AND SUPPORT ALLOWANCE REGULATIONS 2008, revised version 31/3/2030 (sic), states at regualtion 45(4):
"Work which is done for less than 16 hours a week, for which earnings in any
week do not exceed 16 x National Minimum Wage, subject to paragraph (9A),"

The New Style ESA legislation, the EMPLOYMENT AND SUPPORT ALLOWANCE REGULATIONS 2013, revised version 31/3/2019, has different but similar wording at regulation 39(c)
"work which is done for less than 16 hours a week, for which total earnings in
any week does not exceed 16 multiplied by the National Minimum Wage,
subject to paragraph (4),"

I was not concerned about ‘slack’ use of wording. I was concerned that what you had said was incorrect in saying that the earnings requirement was to be below 16 x NMW.

The requirements are clearly set out in the Permitted Work factsheet even though the wording is slightly different to the actual legislation.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/employment-and-support-allowance-permitted-work-form/permitted-work-factsheet

Newcad

TBH we all know what it means and are just discussing fine details here in the difference of wordings in different documents.
But if it gets that far then tribunals are a court and so rulings are based on the wording in the legislation.

darto150

thanks.. Also, what affect does being in the support group have besides it paying extra?

I read https://www.gov.uk/employment-support-allowance/your-esa-claim

• a work-related activity group (you cannot work now, but can prepare to work in the future, for example by writing a CV)
• a support group (you cannot work now and you’re not expected to prepare for work in the future)

So if it says you can't work, does that mean you can't work?

And where it says "You do not have to go to interviews. You can tell your work coach if you’d like to take part in work-related activities."   What's the difference between take part in work-related activities, and take part in work? e.g. does taking part in work related activities include work?  And how does that square with "you cannot work"?

eg is it possible somebody works and gets taken out of the support group as a result?

calcotti

darto150 said:

I read https://www.gov.uk/employment-support-allowance/your-esa-claim

• a work-related activity group (you cannot work now, but can prepare to work in the future, for example by writing a CV)
• a support group (you cannot work now and you’re not expected to prepare for work in the future)

So if it says you can't work, does that mean you can't work

It doesn’t mean that. You can be in the support Group and are still allowed to carry out Permitted Work and still receive ESA.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/employment-and-support-allowance-permitted-work-form/permitted-work-factsheet