Which is cheapest - hybrid, plug-in hybrid or fully electric?

JKenH

Interesting article in WhatCar? comparing three different versions of the Kia Niro on a motorway and a city trip. The results may surprise you. Please note in the table below I have omitted the Congestion charge saving with the EV as the intention is to compare the actual fuel costs.

PAY AS YOU GO

Are you better off with a conventional hybrid, a plug-in hybrid or a fully electric car? We’ve put three versions of the Kia Niro to the test to find out

So, [on the city trip] why was the Niro EV outperformed by the hybrid? Well, firstly, while electric cars are generally more efficient at low speeds, this was a particularly slow city journey with lots of stopping and starting. This is bad for efficiency in any car, because that loss of momentum is never fully recouped – even in cars with regenerative braking systems, which all three Niros are equipped with.

The relatively cold weather (similar to the previous day’s) wouldn’t have helped, either, because it meant the EV needed to use battery power to heat its interior. In the hybrid, heat for this comes from the petrol engine, and harnessing it doesn’t affect fuel efficiency. more efficient at low speeds, this was a particularly slow city journey with lots of stopping and starting. This is bad for efficiency in any car, because that loss of momentum is never fully recouped – even in cars with regenerative braking systems, which all three Niros are equipped with.

The relatively cold weather (similar to the previous day’s) wouldn’t have helped, either, because it meant the EV needed to use battery power to heat its interior. In the hybrid, heat for this comes from the petrol engine, and harnessing it doesn’t affect fuel efficiency.

https://go.readly.com/magazines/532c31a001704d0ca7000096/645b4ee9cb3476309e6b7f46/84

ComicGeek

No EV driver that I know pays 34p/kWh to charge at home, that's just lazy journalism (and even more lazy EV ownership if that's you!)

I haven't paid over 7.5p/kWh to charge our EVs (apart from one time I paid 28p/kWh at a public charger over a year ago, for a total of £13). 

JKenH

ComicGeek said:

No EV driver that I know pays 34p/kWh to charge at home, that's just lazy journalism (and even more lazy EV ownership if that's you!)

I haven't paid over 7.5p/kWh to charge our EVs (apart from one time I paid 28p/kWh at a public charger over a year ago, for a total of £13). 

It would seem that not everyone takes advantage of these tariffs. In fact from this research less than half of EV drivers have smart meters.

Only a quarter of EV drivers on time of use tariffs despite significant opportunity for savings

Research from Cornwall Insight has found only a quarter of private electric vehicle (EV) drivers have made the switch to lower priced time of use tariffs, despite many drivers seeing their household electricity demand double after making the switch to an EV.

Time of use tariffs – where p/kWh rates change through the day to reflect demand levels, grid constraints, and levels of renewable generation – have the potential to reduce the costs of transport decarbonisation across the industry. They provide consumers with the opportunity to shift charging to a lower priced, off-peak window, giving them the chance to make large savings compared to charging on a standard flat-rate tariff.  

On top of the quarter of EV drivers on time of use tariffs, a further 18% of EV drivers have smart meters installed (giving them access to time of use pricing) but are yet to take advantage of these tariffs. The remaining drivers are yet to have smart meters installed or have smart meters that are no longer operating in smart mode, so are currently locked out of time of use tariffs.

https://www.cornwall-insight.com/press/only-a-quarter-of-ev-drivers-on-time-of-use-tariffs-despite-significant-opportunity-for-savings/

Car_54

What have smart meters go to do with it? 

You should know the tariff, and have a clock or watch. Not so much lack of a meter, more lack of a brain.

TadleyBaggie

Probably the same people who would fill up a petrol/diesel car at the motorway services. 

JKenH

Car_54 said:

What have smart meters go to do with it? 

You should know the tariff, and have a clock or watch. Not so much lack of a meter, more lack of a brain.

No working smart meter = no specialist EV  tariff but you might still be able to use an E7 tariff. 

Grumpy_chap

ComicGeek said:

No EV driver that I know pays 34p/kWh to charge at home, 

That part doesn't strike me as that exceptional.
What I found odd was the amount of public charging for the EV.
The Niro has 285 mile range (official).
Assuming the journey was planned, so fully charged prior to the start of test, the amount of public charging required should have been only a "splash and dash".  The £25.85 at £0.75/kWh equates to 34 kWh.
The original £17.51 at £0.34/kWh equates to 51.5 kWh whereas the Niro EV has 64.8 kWh battery.

Petriix

It's nonsense based on assumptions rather than real world usage. On Octopus Intelligent, an E-Niro would cost under £5 for a full charge at 7.5p per kWh and, with pragmatic driving rather than just doing 70 on the motorway, almost all of that journey would have been at that rate. Anyone regularly driving that kind of journey would be doing so at under 5p per mile with almost all driving at around 3p per mile. 

Goudy

ComicGeek said:

No EV driver that I know pays 34p/kWh to charge at home, that's just lazy journalism (and even more lazy EV ownership if that's you!)

I would have to pay more than that to charge at home, so would millions of others and some of those do.
It has nothing to do with what tariff I'm on at home either.

Not everyone can home charge, millions live in flats and apartments that make it impossible to use home chargers.
My street is now well supported with char.gy lamp post chargers which cost 66p per Kwh with a 12p connection charge.

But that's not the end of the outlay. As these chargers are in restricted parking bays, there's a £4.75 per hour parking fee or a £140 yearly permit, though as they are normal parking bays they aren't restricted to EVs so the chances are all the bays that have the chargers are full anyway.
When I left this morning there wasn't one EV in a space close to a charger, they were all normal cars.

My next nearest charger from a different supplier is 65p per Kwh with a similar parking charge.

There is something like 800 homes on my short street and likely the same with the next street.
A quick look around and I would estimate 3 homes on the two streets could possible fit a home charger, but they could not guarantee the spots outside their home to park and charge in.

Whether these EV and Plugin figures are right compared to what you might pay might be debatable but they are in fact a total underestimation for millions that just can't home charge. 

JKenH

Petriix said:

It's nonsense based on assumptions rather than real world usage. On Octopus Intelligent, an E-Niro would cost under £5 for a full charge at 7.5p per kWh and, with pragmatic driving rather than just doing 70 on the motorway, almost all of that journey would have been at that rate. Anyone regularly driving that kind of journey would be doing so at under 5p per mile with almost all driving at around 3p per mile. 

Is it really “nonsense based on assumptions rather than real world usage” ? It may appear nonsensical to you because it doesn’t accord with your personal situation but the assumption used  of SVT of 34p/kWh is, according  to the Cornwall Insight data, more likely to apply in the case of the typical EV driver than the 7.5p/kWh tariff you are on. According to Cornwall only 25% of EV drivers are on a TOU tariff. The other 75%, therefore, must presumably be on SVT or possibly some old E7 type tariff that doesn’t need a smart meter.

The MSE forum population is not typical of the population as a whole. We are here because we have an obsession with money saving and like to look into all the little wrinkles that will personally save us money. Not everyone is like that. I have spoken to many friends who aren’t even sure who their electricity supplier is let alone what their tariff rates are. Not everyone obsesses about rates and can be bothered - they tell me they have a life. 

I think it is pretty fair to say that so far the take up of EVs has been biased towards certain sub sections of the driving public for whom EVs suit their needs, be that environmental, financial (BIK/SalSac, ULEZ etc) or suit our particular usage pattern. The 15% of us who chose EVs when buying new or couple of percent who chose EVs when buying used are at this stage not typical of the population - the needs, priorities and desires of the other 90 odd percent of the driving public may be different. Not everyone has or wants a smart meter and even if you have one or can get one that doesn’t automatically mean you can get on a tariff like IO. You need a certain type of car or charger. Octopus Go is easier to access but you still need a smart meter. Having established you can get on a TOU tariff you then need to work out if that is actually the best tariff for you overall. If your EV usage isn’t high and you are at home a lot and, say, cook by electric it might not be because of the higher daytime rates. Not everyone has washing machines, dishwashers and tumble dryers that can take advantage of off peak tariffs. Our TD has a delay function but the washing machine needs a button to be pressed to start it. 

And then, of course, not everyone looking at switching from a hybrid to an EV will have their own off road parking space. So how do they access your 7.5p/kWh tariff? 

And for those lucky enough to access it they will soon realise that the 7.5p/kWh headline rate is more like 9p by the time the electrons have reached the battery. 

Not everyone has had the chance to run an EV and find out the pros and cons and perhaps want to hear both sides of the story. The WhatCar? business model is based on selling copy by providing what they hope the public will perceive as unbiased car reviews and car buying advice. EVs are an increasing part of the new car landscape and if anything the magazine coverage is weighted in favour of EVs (understandably as there is a massive roll out if new EV models). The attitude of the magazine is certainly not anti EV as Teslas regularly feature in their selection of the best cars overall. 

If you read the article as a more typical member of the car buying public it does give a reasonably balanced/objective view of relative costs of a hybrid and an EV in a couple of typical real world use situations. I’m not dismissing your real world usage case, just suggesting that for some (not all) others the real world figures may work out closer to the WhatCar test results. 

How often do we see a proper back to back test of the two technologies free of all the hype or bias that concludes (that for those who do pay SVT) there isn’t  a great deal in it cost wise? Maybe people in the real world have worked that out already and hence the switch to EVs for used buyers is not the flood we are seeing for those incentivised by BIK/SalSac inducements. 

For me, the real eye opener was how little difference there was between the hybrid and EV in the city driving test. 

JKenH

Goudy said:

ComicGeek said:

No EV driver that I know pays 34p/kWh to charge at home, that's just lazy journalism (and even more lazy EV ownership if that's you!)

I would have to pay more than that to charge at home, so would millions of others and some of those do.
It has nothing to do with what tariff I'm on at home either.

Not everyone can home charge, millions live in flats and apartments that make it impossible to use home chargers.
My street is now well supported with char.gy lamp post chargers which cost 66p per Kwh with a 12p connection charge.

But that's not the end of the outlay. As these chargers are in restricted parking bays, there's a £4.75 per hour parking fee or a £140 yearly permit, though as they are normal parking bays they aren't restricted to EVs so the chances are all the bays that have the chargers are full anyway.
When I left this morning there wasn't one EV in a space close to a charger, they were all normal cars.

My next nearest charger from a different supplier is 65p per Kwh with a similar parking charge.

There is something like 800 homes on my short street and likely the same with the next street.
A quick look around and I would estimate 3 homes on the two streets could possible fit a home charger, but they could not guarantee the spots outside their home to park and charge in.

Whether these EV and Plugin figures are right compared to what you might pay might be debatable but they are in fact a total underestimation for millions that just can't home charge. 

Thanks for posting that. There is a vast spectrum of scenarios some of which make EVs a no brainer and others a non starter. There is no one size fits all scenario for EVs but some EV promoters, both individuals and organisations (like our government) won’t accept that. I ran an EV for 3 years and loved driving the car but realised that the compromises, in my particular case, were just too great and went back to petrol.