Is there any hope - building regs cert

Rambosmum

Hello,

We had a kitchen extension done 2 years ago. It is now mostly finished with the exception of few snags, which we can get sorted ourselves. With the exception being the electrical installation certificate. Without this we cannot get building regs sign off. The work has been notified and we've had several inspections which have all been good, it's the only outstanding thing. We've asked nicely for the certificate, we've asked both the building company and the electrician they employed multiple times for the certificate over the last 12 months. I have put the request in writing, email and whatsapp as well as verbally, to both. We still owe them money (about 5%) and are refusing to pay it until it is received and they have now stopped requesting it. But 12 months on and we have not had the certificate. The electrician is not registered with a body and has since informed me that he is no longer working for or in touch with the building company or the manager we liaise with (who is the owner/ director) and the company has since been forcibly dissolved. Despite this it does appear to be taking on work. The certificate is not available when I conducted a search and to be honest, despite assurances otherwise from both parties, it doesn't appear to be have been issued.

I have checked with the building inspector and he has advised that we can get another electrician to complete one if they inspect the work and are happy it is up to standard - however we have been unable to get an electrician will to do so due to the work being under plaster etc. 

Any suggestions as to where we go now? 

I've tried (and failed) to keep it brief but happy to provide any more info which may be of use. TIA

tacpot12

If any party is asserting that they certificate has been issued, then ask them to produce a copy. 

Is the Building Inspector saying that they will accept a Electrical Installation Condition Report (EICR) in place of the Electrical Installation Certificate? I would ask them if, under the circumstances, they would accept an EICR. 

You could put it to them that an EICR not only confirms that the installation is safe, but also that there are no breaches of the wiring regulations that can be seen (assuming it comes back clean). The scope of the EICR can be limited to the circuits that were installed or amended during the work to increase the likelihood that it will not report any breaches. Of course this doesn't mean that there isn't some breach of the regulations hidden under the plaster, but realistically there is not much that can be hidden. Undersized conductors combined with  non-maintenance free junction boxes, and missing fire hoods over downlighters are the only things I can think of. Everything else can be seen visually (or checked), and the fire hoods can be checked for if you remove the downlighters. 

I wonder if you were to find another electrician, and make it worth their while to convince themselves that the installation does comply with the wiring regulations, they would sign it off as their own work. If your fee allowed them to hire a high resolution thermal imaging camera, I think they would be able to see if there were any junction boxes (or lose connections) in the walls. They would have to trace the circuits very precisely to see that there were no hidden junction boxes.

I think I would go down this route in order to get the kitchen extension signed off. It they just take the money without reviewing the design and every aspect of the installation, it's not really legal, but there is no legal route other than to rewire the extension, which will be expensive and wasteful. This should really not be necessary. A firm may always go out of business before certificates are issued, and we have a fundamental flaw in our current arrangements because this is not provided for adequately.

Rambosmum

Thanks for that. I will ask building regs if they would accept an EICR. I did ask if there was any alternative and they said no, but its worth asking about specifically. I'm kind of hoping is I bug the building inspector enough he will relent on the alternative! He seems a nice bloke and isn't trying to be hard work. Not his fault we picked a did builder! 

Rambosmum

I asked. It was a no! 

Now down the sweetner route. 

Risteard

tacpot12 said:

If any party is asserting that they certificate has been issued, then ask them to produce a copy. 

Is the Building Inspector saying that they will accept a Electrical Installation Condition Report (EICR) in place of the Electrical Installation Certificate? I would ask them if, under the circumstances, they would accept an EICR. 

You could put it to them that an EICR not only confirms that the installation is safe, but also that there are no breaches of the wiring regulations that can be seen (assuming it comes back clean). The scope of the EICR can be limited to the circuits that were installed or amended during the work to increase the likelihood that it will not report any breaches. Of course this doesn't mean that there isn't some breach of the regulations hidden under the plaster, but realistically there is not much that can be hidden. Undersized conductors combined with  non-maintenance free junction boxes, and missing fire hoods over downlighters are the only things I can think of. Everything else can be seen visually (or checked), and the fire hoods can be checked for if you remove the downlighters. 

I wonder if you were to find another electrician, and make it worth their while to convince themselves that the installation does comply with the wiring regulations, they would sign it off as their own work. If your fee allowed them to hire a high resolution thermal imaging camera, I think they would be able to see if there were any junction boxes (or lose connections) in the walls. They would have to trace the circuits very precisely to see that there were no hidden junction boxes.

I think I would go down this route in order to get the kitchen extension signed off. It they just take the money without reviewing the design and every aspect of the installation, it's not really legal, but there is no legal route other than to rewire the extension, which will be expensive and wasteful. This should really not be necessary. A firm may always go out of business before certificates are issued, and we have a fundamental flaw in our current arrangements because this is not provided for adequately.

An Electrical Installation Condition Report does not verify that there are no beaches of the Wiring Regulations though - it only assesses whether there are safety issues or not. Only a certificate for the works done asserts that the detailed works only comply with the Wiring Regulations.

p1583m

Hi, I had a similar issue. Builder wouldn’t give me the electrical cert and was non responsive when asked for it. Electrician also playing hard ball - laptop broke etc etc. 

I ended up ringing NAPIT and they advised me that they’re obliged to give one. An electrician I’ve had since said a similar thing and gave me a cert for an extractor fan so there is some good out there. 

Find out who they’re registered with usually NAPIT OR NICEIC and try and squeeze them that way. Their websites list whether a contractor is registered with them I think. They might take it a little more seriously if the work they were doing was notifiable (we understand our work wasn’t) 

Ectophile

Risteard said:

tacpot12 said:

If any party is asserting that they certificate has been issued, then ask them to produce a copy. 

Is the Building Inspector saying that they will accept a Electrical Installation Condition Report (EICR) in place of the Electrical Installation Certificate? I would ask them if, under the circumstances, they would accept an EICR. 

You could put it to them that an EICR not only confirms that the installation is safe, but also that there are no breaches of the wiring regulations that can be seen (assuming it comes back clean). The scope of the EICR can be limited to the circuits that were installed or amended during the work to increase the likelihood that it will not report any breaches. Of course this doesn't mean that there isn't some breach of the regulations hidden under the plaster, but realistically there is not much that can be hidden. Undersized conductors combined with  non-maintenance free junction boxes, and missing fire hoods over downlighters are the only things I can think of. Everything else can be seen visually (or checked), and the fire hoods can be checked for if you remove the downlighters. 

I wonder if you were to find another electrician, and make it worth their while to convince themselves that the installation does comply with the wiring regulations, they would sign it off as their own work. If your fee allowed them to hire a high resolution thermal imaging camera, I think they would be able to see if there were any junction boxes (or lose connections) in the walls. They would have to trace the circuits very precisely to see that there were no hidden junction boxes.

I think I would go down this route in order to get the kitchen extension signed off. It they just take the money without reviewing the design and every aspect of the installation, it's not really legal, but there is no legal route other than to rewire the extension, which will be expensive and wasteful. This should really not be necessary. A firm may always go out of business before certificates are issued, and we have a fundamental flaw in our current arrangements because this is not provided for adequately.

An Electrical Installation Condition Report does not verify that there are no beaches of the Wiring Regulations though - it only assesses whether there are safety issues or not. Only a certificate for the works done asserts that the detailed works only comply with the Wiring Regulations.

But many councils aren't so awkward as to make someone rip out all the electrics and have someone do it all again.  Ensuring that it's safe is really the point of the exercise anyway.

The Wiring Regulations aren't actually called up in the Building Regulations, only in the guidance on how to meet the Building Regulations.  So if a council chooses to, then they can overlook the guidance.

Risteard

Ectophile said:

Risteard said:

tacpot12 said:

If any party is asserting that they certificate has been issued, then ask them to produce a copy. 

Is the Building Inspector saying that they will accept a Electrical Installation Condition Report (EICR) in place of the Electrical Installation Certificate? I would ask them if, under the circumstances, they would accept an EICR. 

You could put it to them that an EICR not only confirms that the installation is safe, but also that there are no breaches of the wiring regulations that can be seen (assuming it comes back clean). The scope of the EICR can be limited to the circuits that were installed or amended during the work to increase the likelihood that it will not report any breaches. Of course this doesn't mean that there isn't some breach of the regulations hidden under the plaster, but realistically there is not much that can be hidden. Undersized conductors combined with  non-maintenance free junction boxes, and missing fire hoods over downlighters are the only things I can think of. Everything else can be seen visually (or checked), and the fire hoods can be checked for if you remove the downlighters. 

I wonder if you were to find another electrician, and make it worth their while to convince themselves that the installation does comply with the wiring regulations, they would sign it off as their own work. If your fee allowed them to hire a high resolution thermal imaging camera, I think they would be able to see if there were any junction boxes (or lose connections) in the walls. They would have to trace the circuits very precisely to see that there were no hidden junction boxes.

I think I would go down this route in order to get the kitchen extension signed off. It they just take the money without reviewing the design and every aspect of the installation, it's not really legal, but there is no legal route other than to rewire the extension, which will be expensive and wasteful. This should really not be necessary. A firm may always go out of business before certificates are issued, and we have a fundamental flaw in our current arrangements because this is not provided for adequately.

An Electrical Installation Condition Report does not verify that there are no beaches of the Wiring Regulations though - it only assesses whether there are safety issues or not. Only a certificate for the works done asserts that the detailed works only comply with the Wiring Regulations.

But many councils aren't so awkward as to make someone rip out all the electrics and have someone do it all again.  Ensuring that it's safe is really the point of the exercise anyway.

The Wiring Regulations aren't actually called up in the Building Regulations, only in the guidance on how to meet the Building Regulations.  So if a council chooses to, then they can overlook the guidance.

My point was that an Electrical Installation Condition Report does not and cannot assert what was claimed. It does not assert that the Wiring Regulations (BS 7671) have not been breached.

Incidentally, the lack of an Electrical Installation Certificate for the works is itself a breach.

FFHillbilly

to be honest I think your BC are being a bit silly, from what i've heard most will accept an EICR in these circumstances. maybe you need to prove to them that you have been trying for a year to get a certificate but the original installer is not willing to give you one?