Am I right to be upset with this tiling?

TilingProblem78

Hi all,

I'm currently in the middle of renovating a house and one of the rooms I'm currently working on is the bathroom. Having done 99% of the work myself (plus my test tiling not having gone very well!) I decided to treat myself and get a professional tiler in to tile the bathroom. He's done the main tiling and is due to return tomorrow to complete the grouting. However I've got a number of issues, with supporting images attached:

• I'm under the impression that tiles (especially porcelain and especially in wet areas) should be near complete coverage on the back of the tile. These aren't. In some areas I can still see the gap between the tile and the underlying Wedi board (see pictures) and you can clearly see there's large areas without any adhesive. It's obviously difficult to see the back of the majority but looking in the grout gap between the tile it appears to be the same there. From my best guess he's slapped a dollop of adhesive in the middle of the tile and pushed it on the wall. 
• Some of the edging seems quite poor. See the photo on the edge of the Wedi + the tile trim going up the wall.
• The niche area generally feels a little messy. Appreciate the sizing isn't ideal but I'm thinking he should have checked where the tiles fell beforehand. The tiles also appear odd sizes and the adhesive appears a bit of a mess.
• There is definitely some slight lipping on the tiles, with some protruding more than the tile next to it. There's nothing terrible in this department and it might well disappear once the grout was put on but still, it's far from perfect.

Right now I'm tempted to tell him to rip it all out and start again but I wanted to get some opinions as to whether I'm over-reacting. Would appreciate some feedback.

Annoyingly we've used this guy before, although for plastering and he did a great job at that. Has lots of good reviews and pretty pictures on Facebook. I had every faith in him to do a good job and to say I'm disappointed is an understatement. In all honesty I wish I'd done it myself, even with my lack of experience I feel I would have done a better job.

Thanks for your opinions.

TilingProblem78

Oh, I forgot an issue. There's a pipe coming out the wall for the shower head. He hasn't used drill bits to cut the hole, he used an angle grinder. The shower set comes with a little ring that goes between the shower head and the wall. Although I haven't uncapped the pipe yet to check it properly from a quick measure I believe you'll see the cut beyond the edge of that ring.

tacpot12

You are right that it's not very good. The tiles should have 100% coverage of adhesive on the back in wet areas.

The size of the niche should have been adjusted, as the thin tile looks odd. That said, they have managed to cut the tile into two very thin strips. It also looks like they will not be able to get any grout into the gap on the top right of the niche as the gap is too small although this could be that the photo or the light makes it look like there is no gap when there is a gap there. 

The photo of the trim up the wall is also not good - the trim should have been placed on the edge (assuming it was sufficiently straight) and the tiles at the other end of the run cut to fit the remaining gap. That said, I think the situation could be recovered by gluing an extra thickness of trim onto the existing trim. 

You need to try the decor ring for the shower and point out the problem to him.

I think you need review all the areas where you think there are problems and discuss it with the tiler. I think I would address the trim and the niche first and see how receptive they are to fixing the obvious problems. If they are ok, then move onto the fact that the tiles aren't fully covered. You only real options here are to:

a) accept the situation and that the tiles may leak. The walls are Wedi board, so it's not going to harm the boards, but where is the water going to go when it gets behind the tiles?  
b) require that he removes them and refits them (which will probably require one or both of you to share the costs) 
c) tell him you are not happy and that you want to him to stop working on the job. You will have to pay him for what he has done or sue him for the remediation cost. 

I would speak to your Home Insurer's Legal Helpline (assuming you have legal expenses cover) asap.   

tacpot12

I wouldn't tell them that "someone on the internet says there should be 100% coverage"!  Refer them to the British Standard  BS 5385-1: 2018 (It actually says 80-100% coverage in wet areas - some of your tiles have considerably less.)

The British Standard allowed 50% coverage in dry areas. It may be that the tiler regards the areas as dry, when you do not. You might need to do more research to show where the wet area extends to.   

plumb1_2

1st pic, maybe the wall is not plumb and he’s dabbing the tile out to level it, yes but should have more adeshive . Taking the tiles off might damage the wedi board. So maybe mixing some sloppy adhesive to troweling some extra in. Plus presume there’s going to be a whb on the wall and a worktop over? So not in contact with water.

vertical wall, with the tile trim, is that corner plumb ? Does the trim sit correct at the bottom and gradually move over towards the ceiling? Is the wall 2 or 3 full tiles wide and might need a 5 mm cut in the corner? Hard to cut a 5mm strip without braking a few tiles especially porcelain. and would look bad. Would have been better to start in the middle and have 2 equal cuts either end.
Maybe you can get a small corner trim and slide it behind the tile trim. Or rip them off and start again with new board.

The pocket in the wall, who built it? It does look crap with those small strips of tile. If you built it, he’ll just say he’s tiling what’s there. Always better to build the pocket larger , that way you can add several layers of board to bring it flush, or slightly below to allow for adeshive and thickness of the tile. ie use 6,9,12 mm to pack it out.

TilingProblem78

plumb1_2 said:

1st pic, maybe the wall is not plumb and he’s dabbing the tile out to level it, yes but should have more adeshive . Taking the tiles off might damage the wedi board. So maybe mixing some sloppy adhesive to troweling some extra in. Plus presume there’s going to be a whb on the wall and a worktop over? So not in contact with water.

I took a picture of that bit as it's the only section where you can still clearly see the gap between the tile and Wedi board. You are right that'll be covered up. However from what I can gather the same technique has been used in the shower area too. In the shower area I can see very little adhesive between the gaps in the tile and a number of the tiles actually appear slightly flexible. If I push on the corners of the tile they definitely push inwards by a mm or so. I'm assuming it shouldn't be doing that. 

plumb1_2 said:

vertical wall, with the tile trim, is that corner plumb ? Does the trim sit correct at the bottom and gradually move over towards the ceiling? Is the wall 2 or 3 full tiles wide and might need a 5 mm cut in the corner? Hard to cut a 5mm strip without braking a few tiles especially porcelain. and would look bad. Would have been better to start in the middle and have 2 equal cuts either end.
Maybe you can get a small corner trim and slide it behind the tile trim. Or rip them off and start again with new board.

That piece of wall is slightly out of level. I take the point but wouldn't it have been better for him to have the trim/tiles slightly out of level too and match the existing wall? In all honestly this problem is pretty minor and I expect could be patched up to an acceptable level, I just posted the pic alongside the other issues.

plumb1_2 said:

The pocket in the wall, who built it? It does look crap with those small strips of tile. If you built it, he’ll just say he’s tiling what’s there. Always better to build the pocket larger , that way you can add several layers of board to bring it flush, or slightly below to allow for adeshive and thickness of the tile. ie use 6,9,12 mm to pack it out.

I built the niche. I obviously therefore take full responsibility for the sizing. I feel like he should have worked this out though and made sure the row of tiles finished in the middle of the niche but maybe I'm being unrealistic here. Also I feel those thin bits of tile could have been cut/set better but again maybe I'm underestimating how difficult tile of that size is to cut.

My main issue is the lack of tile adhesive coverage and how big a problem that is. The other issues, while sloppy in my opinion I could accept and I respect my part in some of these elements.

Section62

TilingProblem78 said:

Hi all,

I'm currently in the middle of renovating a house and one of the rooms I'm currently working on is the bathroom. Having done 99% of the work myself (plus my test tiling not having gone very well!) I decided to treat myself and get a professional tiler in to tile the bathroom. He's done the main tiling and is due to return tomorrow to complete the grouting. However I've got a number of issues, with supporting images attached:

One of the problems with being a keen DIYer is when you decide to get a trader in to do the job it is common to expect the trader to do the job in the way you would do it yourself.  Keen DIYers tend to have high standards compared to the average customer, and generally will notice 'faults' that other people won't.

The principal question in cases like this is whether the work was done to the standard specified in the contract, and if it wasn't specified, then does the standard of work meet at least the minimum the average customer would find reasonable.  If you go to court over this, those are the kind of questions that would be asked, in addition to others such as were you aware the trader was primarily a plasterer rather than a tiler (if that is the case?).

The correct method of tiling, and references to BS 5385-1: 2018, are only engaged if i) there was something in the specification or ii) the standard of workmanship falls significantly below what could be expected.  E.g. Did you ask for the tiling to be carried out in accordance with BS5385 and designate which areas were to be 'wet'?

Again, if this goes legal, the court would likely look at the job in totality, not focus in on specific defects.  The appearance of tiling before grouting is typically much worse than after the grouting has been finished - so it is difficult for us to tell from the photos so far whether the overall job when finished would be to a satisfactory standard.

In terms of the niche, it doesn't look great.  But the problem with tiling is working out which things to align the tiles to as very rarely will joints all align neatly with everything.  Moving the tiles so they aligned neatly with the niche could have put them badly out of alignment with something else.  It then comes down to personal preference which out of alignment is the OK one.

Somewhere on the forum there is a very long thread on the alignment of tiling in which the OP wasn't happy with the way the tiler had done the job.  A probably fair summary of the replies from those involved in the trade is that unless you speficy a detail like this, the trader's view on what is 'right' is no less valid than what you thought (but didn't communicate) should be done.

TilingProblem78

Section62 said:

TilingProblem78 said:

Hi all,

I'm currently in the middle of renovating a house and one of the rooms I'm currently working on is the bathroom. Having done 99% of the work myself (plus my test tiling not having gone very well!) I decided to treat myself and get a professional tiler in to tile the bathroom. He's done the main tiling and is due to return tomorrow to complete the grouting. However I've got a number of issues, with supporting images attached:

One of the problems with being a keen DIYer is when you decide to get a trader in to do the job it is common to expect the trader to do the job in the way you would do it yourself.  Keen DIYers tend to have high standards compared to the average customer, and generally will notice 'faults' that other people won't.

The principal question in cases like this is whether the work was done to the standard specified in the contract, and if it wasn't specified, then does the standard of work meet at least the minimum the average customer would find reasonable.  If you go to court over this, those are the kind of questions that would be asked, in addition to others such as were you aware the trader was primarily a plasterer rather than a tiler (if that is the case?).

The correct method of tiling, and references to BS 5385-1: 2018, are only engaged if i) there was something in the specification or ii) the standard of workmanship falls significantly below what could be expected.  E.g. Did you ask for the tiling to be carried out in accordance with BS5385 and designate which areas were to be 'wet'?

Again, if this goes legal, the court would likely look at the job in totality, not focus in on specific defects.  The appearance of tiling before grouting is typically much worse than after the grouting has been finished - so it is difficult for us to tell from the photos so far whether the overall job when finished would be to a satisfactory standard.

In terms of the niche, it doesn't look great.  But the problem with tiling is working out which things to align the tiles to as very rarely will joints all align neatly with everything.  Moving the tiles so they aligned neatly with the niche could have put them badly out of alignment with something else.  It then comes down to personal preference which out of alignment is the OK one.

Somewhere on the forum there is a very long thread on the alignment of tiling in which the OP wasn't happy with the way the tiler had done the job.  A probably fair summary of the replies from those involved in the trade is that unless you speficy a detail like this, the trader's view on what is 'right' is no less valid than what you thought (but didn't communicate) should be done.

Thanks for your response. Some fair points. To answer some of your questions:

There certainly wasn't a contract that went into that much detail. While I can take the point on something like the tile layout (although I think he should have discussed any potential issues with me) I'm really not sure it's down to the customer to specify they want the tile adhesive applied to the correct standards. Surely that should be standard?

I wouldn't say he's primarily a plasterer that does some tiling on the side. He advertises both equally. He has pictures of previous tiling jobs on his Facebook page. Even his company name has plastering and tiling within it. He's definitely a professional tiler, or at least claims to be.

As above is it really down to the customer to specify BS5385 (or any standards) should be followed? Surely as a professional they should be aware of the minimum standards that should be followed and not rely on the customer for them to do their job properly? If a house burnt down because an electrician used the wrong gauge of wiring I wouldn't expect the customer to be held accountable because they didn't specify the correct wiring was used. We pay professionals for their knowledge that you can't really expect the customer to have.

Similarly I wouldn't expect to have to specify which areas are wet. Anyone (let alone a professional) should realise that the walls surrounding a shower tray will be wet areas.

The niche is annoying, especially as I have to accept a level of blame for it. I have to decide whether I (a) accept it as is (b) see if I can cut out better thin pieces of tile and if I do then replace those or (c) rip out the niche bit, make it bigger and then retile. Whichever option I go for I have to accept that this is my problem, even if I don't think I'm entirely to blame.

I also accept that some of the issues will be resolved with the grouting. I expect that bar the niche area everything else will look quite good once finished.

However by far my biggest issue is the volume of tile adhesive used and the coverage and I could let the other niggly issues go. I accept that asking him to fix it will likely be a lot of hassle, time consuming and expensive. I also expect he won't be that happy with this suggestion so I'd have a fight on my hands. So my question to those knowledgeable in tiling is how much of a problem is this likely to be, especially in the wet areas?? I expect there's a reason this recommended standard exists but I don't know the consequences of leaving it as is.

plumb1_2

Several options 
Remove the tiles and him to redo them
Remove the pocket and do it again or tile over it.
Pay him up and  redo the tiles yourself 
Tell him you’ll do the grouting, that way you can make a small batch of grout a little runny and force it behind the tiles you’re concerned about, then another batch stiffer to grout over. But don’t let the first batch dry out.
The lack of  adeshive  is a littler concerning, but your main defensive regards any water leak if the quality of the grouting. Do you trust him to carry it out to quality standard, only you can answer that.
But good luck with it.

benson1980

I'd ask why the adhesive hasn't been applied using a notched trowel. Appears as the OP says that a blob has just been placed on the reverse surface.

Any chance of a picture of the efforts to tile around the pipe? There is what appears to be a diamond hole saw in the first photo which I assume is the tilers? Was this a 15mm pipe with a speed fit stop end? To do this properly the stop end would obviously have to be removed and a 19 or 20mm hole saw used. Point being, would this involve isolating the supply and is this a reason why the other method was used. Not excusing the 'technique' then employed but perhaps one of the contributing factors.

Tiling around niche- there'd be ways of tiling that without making it look bodged as it does now so I'm not sure I'd be that hard on your own efforts regarding sizing. I'd probably combine a challenge of this effort with other options that might have been available in terms of layout. It's standard practice for a professional tiler to avoid slithers and I'm sure there would have been some way of avoiding this without compromising the overall appearance.

The trouble with tiling is that it is time consuming to do it properly. Not necessarily that skilled, but I normally take the best part of half a day just dry laying out and measuring out the areas to be tiled, to avoid the above issues. A tiler who is working to get a job done in a day, isn't necessarily going to do this- as was evidenced by the very long tiling thread referred to above.

IvyFlood

Wow the niche looks terrible! I wouldn't be able to live with that! I'm glad I came across your thread as we are currently going through getting quotes for our bathroom which includes a niche the entire width of the back wall and after a tiling mess we had in our kitchen (thread below) I will be watching everyone like a hawk to make sure its done right! Personally with a niche, I think a mitred edge looks better but appreciate its hard to do and many are reluctant to do it.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6191131/kitchen-tiling-mess-should-we-pay/p1