Help needed with N1 court money claim form please

Tara100

GDB2222 said:

Check the gov uk companies website to see which other companies the directors are associated with. In particular, look to see whether they have a string of companies that have gone insolvent over the years. There’s no point suing a company that will just be closed down as soon as you get a court order against them. That is harder for the owner to do with a car sales company that has lots of stock, but some traders will hold the stock in one company and do the sales through another one that has no assets. 

The dealer always has 30-50 cars on sale.

They have 34 advertised currently.

The Ltd company address online at gov uk doesn't match, because late last night I saw on their FB page that they moved addresses last July, but haven't updated details with companies house.

Thanks

sheramber

The registered office does not need to be the same as the business address.

often it is the address of the accountant who deals with the business.

born_again

Tara100 said:

The value amount is unspecified, as the reimbursement costs are going uphill, and I cannot say what they will be at the point of court hearing.

I hope I've made sense - my brain is cooked.

Thank you

Why are the costs going uphill if the car is not used?

Can you even make a claim for a "unspecified amount"?

tightauldgit

Tara100 said:

tightauldgit said:

Tara100 said:

tightauldgit said:

1. I would fill out the form and then photocopy it twice as needed. You should be able to find somewhere that will copy things for you for a few pence - maybe your local library? 

2. The name you put is VERY IMPORTANT. You need to be sure of what you are putting. It needs to be the name of the legal entity you are claiming against so you need to know if they are a sole trader or a limited company or what. What you have put as an example doesn't look right to me - if you want to sue Frog Moon Ltd as a business then you put Frog Moon Ltd. Not a person. But you need to triple check who you are claiming against. 

Incidentally why is you claim for 'an unspecified amount'? Do you want to give us a bit more background?

Hello. I've just realised things are messier than I thought re this form.

The claim is against a used car dealer, and I bought the car from their used car business premises.

The dealer is the owner and the business director.

Apparently, this dealer may not be the original purchaser of the car before me, as Trading Standards informed me that they sell vehicles for others, and he takes a percentage cut.

I've just spotted on gov uk company info, his registered address for the business does not match his current business address.

I believe he moved premises this year, and I guess he hasn't updated his details.

The dealer also owns a car repair business, and I was told I had to make payment to that bank account, rather than the bank account of the used car business where the car was advertised and sold.
Now I am unsure whether I state the physical business address that I bought the car from, or his other business address where I was told to send payment to.

The value amount is unspecified, as the reimbursement costs are going uphill, and I cannot say what they will be at the point of court hearing.

I hope I've made sense - my brain is cooked.

Thank you

This IS sounding messy. Without wanting to scare you off pursuing it, if this is a fly-by-night used car dealer then you do have to be prepared for the fact that even if you get a CCJ against the business it may be really difficult to enforce it. 

At this point I want to be honest and say I'm out of my legal depth so I'm just offering my thoughts - because I'm torn between saying you should sue the person/business that invoiced you and you should sue the business/person you paid. 

Do you have any paperwork for the transaction? What does that say? What documentation do you have about the whole conversation on paying a different account? 

How much is the claim roughly? I feel like you might benefit from getting some advice from a solicitor to make sure your paperwork is right because if you get it wrong then you will end up with nothing and there aren't any second chances. 

Why are your reimbursement costs going uphill? You need to be careful to ensure that what you are claiming for is recoverable and not just your wishlist. 

I'm being honest with you when I say that as it stands I feel like there's a good chance you'll get this wrong if you don't get some proper legal advice. Those costs probably won't be recoverable so the question is whether its worth throwing a few hundred/thousand quid at a solicitor to help you here.

ETA: I re-read your post and I'm also wondering if he's just acting as an agent for someone else and you should be suing the actual owner of the vehicle. I'm genuinely lost at this point so I really think you need some proper professional advice.

Hi again, and thank you for your replies.

I can't say too much about the case in a public forum, but I'm absolutely going through small claims. I've put too much in, time, emotionally and stress wise to back out now. I wish I could tell you all that's gone on, truly.

The dealer isn't a fly by night type like you mean, but I have found out others have had to involve Trading Standards and resort to court action, as he did the same to them .

If he'd accepted the car back under consumer law, (short term right to reject within 30 days) and reinbursed me for the couple of hundred I've spent proving the state of the car, then all would have been well.

He has a lot more to lose than me in many ways.

In the meantime, that car still has to be taxed and insured as it's parked on the highway. There's no where else to leave it, and it's not been driveable for weeks.

I suspect that taxing and insuring your car (even if it's undriveable) would not be considered a recoverable loss by the court - if you have had to rent, tax or insure a second car in the meantime then possibly those costs would be. 

GDB2222

Tara100 said:

GDB2222 said:

Check the gov uk companies website to see which other companies the directors are associated with. In particular, look to see whether they have a string of companies that have gone insolvent over the years. There’s no point suing a company that will just be closed down as soon as you get a court order against them. That is harder for the owner to do with a car sales company that has lots of stock, but some traders will hold the stock in one company and do the sales through another one that has no assets. 

The dealer always has 30-50 cars on sale.

They have 34 advertised currently.

The Ltd company address online at gov uk doesn't match, because late last night I saw on their FB page that they moved addresses last July, but haven't updated details with companies house.

Thanks

Use the registered office address which is on the gov uk website. There is absolutely no need to second guess this. 

Have you downloaded the accounts for the company? Have you checked other cos with the same directors?

Tara100

tightauldgit said:

Tara100 said:

tightauldgit said:

Tara100 said:

tightauldgit said:

1. I would fill out the form and then photocopy it twice as needed. You should be able to find somewhere that will copy things for you for a few pence - maybe your local library? 

2. The name you put is VERY IMPORTANT. You need to be sure of what you are putting. It needs to be the name of the legal entity you are claiming against so you need to know if they are a sole trader or a limited company or what. What you have put as an example doesn't look right to me - if you want to sue Frog Moon Ltd as a business then you put Frog Moon Ltd. Not a person. But you need to triple check who you are claiming against. 

Incidentally why is you claim for 'an unspecified amount'? Do you want to give us a bit more background?

Hello. I've just realised things are messier than I thought re this form.

The claim is against a used car dealer, and I bought the car from their used car business premises.

The dealer is the owner and the business director.

Apparently, this dealer may not be the original purchaser of the car before me, as Trading Standards informed me that they sell vehicles for others, and he takes a percentage cut.

I've just spotted on gov uk company info, his registered address for the business does not match his current business address.

I believe he moved premises this year, and I guess he hasn't updated his details.

The dealer also owns a car repair business, and I was told I had to make payment to that bank account, rather than the bank account of the used car business where the car was advertised and sold.
Now I am unsure whether I state the physical business address that I bought the car from, or his other business address where I was told to send payment to.

The value amount is unspecified, as the reimbursement costs are going uphill, and I cannot say what they will be at the point of court hearing.

I hope I've made sense - my brain is cooked.

Thank you

This IS sounding messy. Without wanting to scare you off pursuing it, if this is a fly-by-night used car dealer then you do have to be prepared for the fact that even if you get a CCJ against the business it may be really difficult to enforce it. 

At this point I want to be honest and say I'm out of my legal depth so I'm just offering my thoughts - because I'm torn between saying you should sue the person/business that invoiced you and you should sue the business/person you paid. 

Do you have any paperwork for the transaction? What does that say? What documentation do you have about the whole conversation on paying a different account? 

How much is the claim roughly? I feel like you might benefit from getting some advice from a solicitor to make sure your paperwork is right because if you get it wrong then you will end up with nothing and there aren't any second chances. 

Why are your reimbursement costs going uphill? You need to be careful to ensure that what you are claiming for is recoverable and not just your wishlist. 

I'm being honest with you when I say that as it stands I feel like there's a good chance you'll get this wrong if you don't get some proper legal advice. Those costs probably won't be recoverable so the question is whether its worth throwing a few hundred/thousand quid at a solicitor to help you here.

ETA: I re-read your post and I'm also wondering if he's just acting as an agent for someone else and you should be suing the actual owner of the vehicle. I'm genuinely lost at this point so I really think you need some proper professional advice.

Hi again, and thank you for your replies.

I can't say too much about the case in a public forum, but I'm absolutely going through small claims. I've put too much in, time, emotionally and stress wise to back out now. I wish I could tell you all that's gone on, truly.

The dealer isn't a fly by night type like you mean, but I have found out others have had to involve Trading Standards and resort to court action, as he did the same to them .

If he'd accepted the car back under consumer law, (short term right to reject within 30 days) and reinbursed me for the couple of hundred I've spent proving the state of the car, then all would have been well.

He has a lot more to lose than me in many ways.

In the meantime, that car still has to be taxed and insured as it's parked on the highway. There's no where else to leave it, and it's not been driveable for weeks.

I suspect that taxing and insuring your car (even if it's undriveable) would not be considered a recoverable loss by the court - if you have had to rent, tax or insure a second car in the meantime then possibly those costs would be. 

Yes, I've had to buy another car.

It was do this, or hire a car at £300 a week minimum. With no response or chance of resolution in sight (and I also offered to engage in ADR) buying another car seemed the best option. I paid out for an independent engineers inspection and another MOT also.

I've been told I can claim for these financial losses, but we'll see what happens.

Tara100

GDB2222 said:

Tara100 said:

GDB2222 said:

Check the gov uk companies website to see which other companies the directors are associated with. In particular, look to see whether they have a string of companies that have gone insolvent over the years. There’s no point suing a company that will just be closed down as soon as you get a court order against them. That is harder for the owner to do with a car sales company that has lots of stock, but some traders will hold the stock in one company and do the sales through another one that has no assets. 

The dealer always has 30-50 cars on sale.

They have 34 advertised currently.

The Ltd company address online at gov uk doesn't match, because late last night I saw on their FB page that they moved addresses last July, but haven't updated details with companies house.

Thanks

Use the registered office address which is on the gov uk website. There is absolutely no need to second guess this. 

Have you downloaded the accounts for the company? Have you checked other cos with the same directors?

If I do that, the trader will not receive served papers.
He moved from two premises last July and someone else is trading from the buildings.

I've found out more since earlier anyway - 3 wrong registered addresses for the two businesses concerned, plus shareholders I didn't know of.
Money claims helpline states I must have the correct address and defendants details, or the claim will be rejected. They cannot advise further, and said I need legal advice, because there is no way of going forward currently.

MattMattMattUK

Tara100 said:

GDB2222 said:

Tara100 said:

GDB2222 said:

Check the gov uk companies website to see which other companies the directors are associated with. In particular, look to see whether they have a string of companies that have gone insolvent over the years. There’s no point suing a company that will just be closed down as soon as you get a court order against them. That is harder for the owner to do with a car sales company that has lots of stock, but some traders will hold the stock in one company and do the sales through another one that has no assets. 

The dealer always has 30-50 cars on sale.

They have 34 advertised currently.

The Ltd company address online at gov uk doesn't match, because late last night I saw on their FB page that they moved addresses last July, but haven't updated details with companies house.

Thanks

Use the registered office address which is on the gov uk website. There is absolutely no need to second guess this. 

Have you downloaded the accounts for the company? Have you checked other cos with the same directors?

If I do that, the trader will not receive served papers.
He moved from two premises last July and someone else is trading from the buildings.

I've found out more since earlier anyway - 3 wrong registered addresses for the two businesses concerned, plus shareholders I didn't know of.
Money claims helpline states I must have the correct address and defendants details, or the claim will be rejected. They cannot advise further, and said I need legal advice, because there is no way of going forward currently.

They will not reject a claim sent to the registered office of a company and if the person you are claiming against does not respond to papers served at their registered office then you would win the judgement by default. You would then have a CCJ against the Limited company, whether they have any assets to pay it would be another matter though.

The fact that there are other shareholders is irrelevant, as is the director. Your claim is against the limited company, you cannot claim against directors apart from in very specific circumstances such as trading whilst insolvent and you can never claim from shareholders. 

GDB2222

As Matt says, the registered office is the correct address. It is up to the company to collect their mail, and it’s not necessary for you to help them out in any way. 

If they fail to get court papers sent to the registered office, then as Matt says they will not be able to file a defence, and you can ask the court for judgment In your favour.  

tightauldgit

Yes I believe it's a requirement for a Ltd company to keep their registered address up to date for precisely these reasons - so I don't think not receiving the mail would be any kind of excuse. Just don't send it signed for or anything because obviously it could be rejected - just send it normal first class mail with a proof of postage to show it was sent. 

I guess you could if you wanted to send a copy to the other address as a courtesy but you should use the registered business address as the formal address in any documentation.