Online trader threatening legal action over PayPal and Mastercard dispute

Spify2311

I made an online purchase on 27 January 2023. The purchase was made through PayPal but I did not use my PayPal account, I used my Mastercard instead. The PayPal receipt even asks me to create a PayPal account. The item was sent via UPS but for some reason, from 1 February, the item was stuck at the UPS warehouse because they were unable to find the address. And address that is exactly that on Google but the seller is claiming the address was wrong. I've had zero issues with other couriers. 

The first red flag was the fact that I could not contact UPS and have it diverted to a collection point which is a service UPS offers. The item was sent so that only the sender could have contact with UPS and only the sender could divert the package to a collection point. 

After over a week, I requested a resolution from the seller asking them to divert the package. They responded advising that the item has now returned to them and a refund will be issued.

Something felt incredibly dodgy so I screenshot the sellers messages and opened a dispute through Mastercard providing the screenshots. Mastercard issued a refund and as far as I was aware the case was closed.

PayPal suddenly decided to get on the bandwagon yesterday and has emailed the seller stating that on 27 April 2023 I opened a case against them. I have an email from PayPal stating that I've opened a case through my bank and there is absolutely nothing that they can do.

The seller is now threatening to sue me for Breach of Contract if I don't drop the PayPal case. Apparently I signed terms and conditions stating that the postage and handing fees of £12 will not be refunded. I am not happy about this deduction because of the fact that the item was sent in a way that the seller was the only one who could do anything, but if the T&Cs are legal then I will happily allow my bank to remove the funds. But he is threatening £650 in damages, providing screenshots of the last 20 people he has sued for the same thing. As well as another £12.50 for the PayPal charges.

I've sent screenshots to my bank and I'm asking them to deal with it. But the way he is trying to bully and scaremonger me into dropping it by threatening legal action, to the point of mentioning CCJs stay on your file for 6 years.

I've done some research into his limited company, he has countless 1 star reviews from people who he's done the same thing to.

My mental health is not great at the moment and his bullying and harassment has caused a severely negative impact on me and I'm really struggling. 

I follow the right process. I went through my card provider. He failed to respond in a timely manner, that's not my fault. He needs to deal with it on his end and not try and manipulate me into dropping the case. 

Aylesbury_Duck

Spify2311 said:

I made an online purchase on 27 January 2023. The purchase was made through PayPal but I did not use my PayPal account, I used my Mastercard instead. The PayPal receipt even asks me to create a PayPal account. The item was sent via UPS but for some reason, from 1 February, the item was stuck at the UPS warehouse because they were unable to find the address. And address that is exactly that on Google but the seller is claiming the address was wrong. I've had zero issues with other couriers. 

The first red flag was the fact that I could not contact UPS and have it diverted to a collection point which is a service UPS offers. The item was sent so that only the sender could have contact with UPS and only the sender could divert the package to a collection point. 

After over a week, I requested a resolution from the seller asking them to divert the package. They responded advising that the item has now returned to them and a refund will be issued.

Something felt incredibly dodgy so I screenshot the sellers messages and opened a dispute through Mastercard providing the screenshots. Mastercard issued a refund and as far as I was aware the case was closed.

PayPal suddenly decided to get on the bandwagon yesterday and has emailed the seller stating that on 27 April 2023 I opened a case against them. I have an email from PayPal stating that I've opened a case through my bank and there is absolutely nothing that they can do.

The seller is now threatening to sue me for Breach of Contract if I don't drop the PayPal case. Apparently I signed terms and conditions stating that the postage and handing fees of £12 will not be refunded. I am not happy about this deduction because of the fact that the item was sent in a way that the seller was the only one who could do anything, but if the T&Cs are legal then I will happily allow my bank to remove the funds. But he is threatening £650 in damages, providing screenshots of the last 20 people he has sued for the same thing. As well as another £12.50 for the PayPal charges.

I've sent screenshots to my bank and I'm asking them to deal with it. But the way he is trying to bully and scaremonger me into dropping it by threatening legal action, to the point of mentioning CCJs stay on your file for 6 years.

I've done some research into his limited company, he has countless 1 star reviews from people who he's done the same thing to.

My mental health is not great at the moment and his bullying and harassment has caused a severely negative impact on me and I'm really struggling. 

I follow the right process. I went through my card provider. He failed to respond in a timely manner, that's not my fault. He needs to deal with it on his end and not try and manipulate me into dropping the case. 

I think - if I've understood correctly - that you've complicated things by using multiple routes to a refund.  You corresponded with the seller who promised a refund, you then opened a dispute with Mastercard and because you bought through Paypal you've got a dispute running there as well.  I'm not surprised the seller is irked, he's now bombarded with disputes for what seems like a simple address error.  However, that doesn't excuse his approach.

Not a lot you can do at the moment because you have at least two refund processes running.  Leave your bank to deal with it.  If he does decide to take legal action, he will have to formally give notice of that, at which stage you can come back here and ask for advice.

GrubbyGirl_2

If I'm following this the dispute is around the £12 yet he wants £650 in compensation?  I just cannot see that any court would agree that was reasonable especially if you used the address that is exactly the same as what the RM postcode lookup would generate. I'm curious as to what screenshots he is sending showing he has successfully sued 20 others

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Hello OP

Let's try to keep this simple Can we start with what did you buy, how much was the item and delivery, where did you buy it from and are you a consumer? 

DullGreyGuy

Aylesbury_Duck said:

Spify2311 said:

I made an online purchase on 27 January 2023. The purchase was made through PayPal but I did not use my PayPal account, I used my Mastercard instead. The PayPal receipt even asks me to create a PayPal account. The item was sent via UPS but for some reason, from 1 February, the item was stuck at the UPS warehouse because they were unable to find the address. And address that is exactly that on Google but the seller is claiming the address was wrong. I've had zero issues with other couriers. 

The first red flag was the fact that I could not contact UPS and have it diverted to a collection point which is a service UPS offers. The item was sent so that only the sender could have contact with UPS and only the sender could divert the package to a collection point. 

After over a week, I requested a resolution from the seller asking them to divert the package. They responded advising that the item has now returned to them and a refund will be issued.

Something felt incredibly dodgy so I screenshot the sellers messages and opened a dispute through Mastercard providing the screenshots. Mastercard issued a refund and as far as I was aware the case was closed.

PayPal suddenly decided to get on the bandwagon yesterday and has emailed the seller stating that on 27 April 2023 I opened a case against them. I have an email from PayPal stating that I've opened a case through my bank and there is absolutely nothing that they can do.

The seller is now threatening to sue me for Breach of Contract if I don't drop the PayPal case. Apparently I signed terms and conditions stating that the postage and handing fees of £12 will not be refunded. I am not happy about this deduction because of the fact that the item was sent in a way that the seller was the only one who could do anything, but if the T&Cs are legal then I will happily allow my bank to remove the funds. But he is threatening £650 in damages, providing screenshots of the last 20 people he has sued for the same thing. As well as another £12.50 for the PayPal charges.

I've sent screenshots to my bank and I'm asking them to deal with it. But the way he is trying to bully and scaremonger me into dropping it by threatening legal action, to the point of mentioning CCJs stay on your file for 6 years.

I've done some research into his limited company, he has countless 1 star reviews from people who he's done the same thing to.

My mental health is not great at the moment and his bullying and harassment has caused a severely negative impact on me and I'm really struggling. 

I follow the right process. I went through my card provider. He failed to respond in a timely manner, that's not my fault. He needs to deal with it on his end and not try and manipulate me into dropping the case. 

I think - if I've understood correctly - that you've complicated things by using multiple routes to a refund.  You corresponded with the seller who promised a refund, you then opened a dispute with Mastercard and because you bought through Paypal you've got a dispute running there as well.  I'm not surprised the seller is irked, he's now bombarded with disputes for what seems like a simple address error.  However, that doesn't excuse his approach.

Not a lot you can do at the moment because you have at least two refund processes running.  Leave your bank to deal with it.  If he does decide to take legal action, he will have to formally give notice of that, at which stage you can come back here and ask for advice.

Whats the second refund running? Clearly the merchant will have discontinued their intents of issuing a refund once the chargeback was received



To the OP... its not clear why you jumped to a chargeback after the merchant said they'd be refunding it? Maybe you waited a month and it wasnt forthcoming and you just missed that fact out.

The law states that the parcel is the merchant's responsibility until its confirmed to be delivered to the address you have stipulated. If they allow the recipient to change the address this opens a minefield of potential problems because you could deny it was you that changed it or it wasnt you that got it from the collection point and so the merchant is then out of pocket. Its much more the norm than a red flag that they required the merchant to instruct the change.

When you pay with PayPal your money goes to PayPal who then pass it to the Merchant, irrespective of if you are logged in or not. As you have done a chargeback you are trying to claw the money back from PayPal's account. PayPal therefore will have turned to the Merchant advising them that they need to support them in the chargeback and if they dont and/or they lose then PayPal will claw the lost money from the Merchant account. 

Chargeback is not a legal process, banks are not legal judges, its simply a process thats designed to settle basic cases and put the heavy lifting of having to issue court proceedings etc onto the merchant and away from the consumer. 

Manxman_in_exile

I'm afraid I'm at a loss to understand exactly what has happened?

-  something didn't get delivered because of an address issue

-  the trader said they'd refund

-  the OP also opened a chargeback (or s75 claim?) which was successful

-  PayPal also process a claim that they say the OP's bank initiated

-  the trader is understandably unhappy with the OP for claiming twice (or is it thrice?)

Is it for £12.50 or what?

I'm not surprised the trader is unhappy, although suing the OP may be a bit OTT.

But I am surprised the trader is "... threatening £650 in damages, providing screenshots of the last 20 people he has sued for the same thing."

20 people he's sued previously - "for the same thing"?  The same thing?!?!

  

DullGreyGuy

Manxman_in_exile said:

I'm afraid I'm at a loss to understand exactly what has happened?

-  something didn't get delivered because of an address issue - courier couldnt find the address and it was returned to the merchant

-  the trader said they'd refund

-  the OP also opened a chargeback (or s75 claim?) which was successful Chargeback which is ongoing

-  PayPal also process a claim that they say the OP's bank initiated Payment was made via PayPal so the chargeback is against PayPal

-  the trader is understandably unhappy with the OP for claiming twice (or is it thrice?) 

Is it for £12.50 or what?

I'm not surprised the trader is unhappy, although suing the OP may be a bit OTT.

But I am surprised the trader is "... threatening £650 in damages, providing screenshots of the last 20 people he has sued for the same thing."

20 people he's sued previously - "for the same thing"?  The same thing?!?!

  

Think its fairly safe to assume the merchant didnt do the refund but its not clear how long the OP waited before starting the chargeback. 

Because they paid via PayPal the chargeback goes to PayPal as the money went to them. In turn PayPal raise a dispute with the merchant as clearly PayPal dont have a clue whats going on and if the Chargeback should be contested or accepted etc.

The merchant is treating the item as a "return" and as such says the OP is only entitled to a refund less £12.50 for "P&P and handling"

Manxman_in_exile

DullGreyGuy said:

... Because they paid via PayPal the chargeback goes to PayPal as the money went to them. In turn PayPal raise a dispute with the merchant as clearly PayPal dont have a clue whats going on and if the Chargeback should be contested or accepted etc...

Got you.  I don't know anything about PayPal but I wondered if the chargeback lodged with the bank would be against PayPal and that they in turn would then claim back from the trader

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

DullGreyGuy said:

£12.50 for "P&P and handling"

Paypal charge a fee to the account holder when they get a chargeback which is presumably what OP refers to when they mention "As well as another £12.50 for the PayPal charges" (although I'm sure it's more than £12.50).

The seller is also saying OP has to pay the £12 P&P. 

I'm not sure what the trader thinks their damages are, possibly the value of the sale, but as they agreed to refund it (and would be required to if OP is a consumer) they have no claim to it.

As you correctly say the bank refunds OP, Paypal refund the bank, the trader refunds Paypal, the only additional loss to the trader is the Paypal chargeback fee. 

Just an after thought, I think Paypal keep the transaction fees they charged the merchant when issuing the refund so perhaps that's what the £12.50, although again they would have suffered that loss anyway. 

born_again

Manxman_in_exile said:

Got you.  I don't know anything about PayPal but I wondered if the chargeback lodged with the bank would be against PayPal and that they in turn would then claim back from the trader

Got it in one @Manxman_in_exile

Years ago PayPal rejected these, as they did as requested. Which was just moving funds. Now they simply accept the chargeback & debit the retailer for the chargeback amount.

Op really jumped the gun, by not waiting for the refund. Now has this mess.
> Mastercard issued a refund and as far as I was aware the case was closed.< I guess they may have missed being told that retailer has 45 days to contest.