Civil Enforcement Ltd

Fruitcake

Nothing is null and void. Just keep stating the hirer was not driving and cannot be held liable.

Please confirm, have you received an NTH in the company name. You say your company received a PCN. Does it refer anywhere to a hirer and the PoFA 2012?
Are you certain this was not a copy of the NTK from the hire company?

Have you received a PoPLA code?

We need clear, precise information in order to help you.

Either way, you treat it as a NTH, and say so, as well as appealing to PoPLA as hirer/lessee.
Get photos of the site and signage if possible, or use GSV images if not.

B789

Just to try and get some clarification... is the PCN you've shown in your opening post addressed to:

a) You?
b) Your company?
c) The leasing company?

Outraged_ said:
The hirer company did not pay anything, they would have just passed the liability to our company.

"...just passed..." does not clarify the questions above. The only way they can "just pass" liability away from themselves is by notifying the PPC, in writing. Whether they have paid or will pay is not the question right now.

What is not clear is whether that PCN is a NtK or an NtH.

outraged_

This is the PCN with personal details covered.
It does not say "Notice to hirer" anywhere, it only states my company name and address.
Therefore I'm assuming it is a copy of the PCN issued to the hire company.
The address in the envelope is from CEL so I know it's not from the hire company.
There is no mention of hirer or POFA 2012 anywhere, as you can see.
The back only states payment and appeal options to POPLA, all the standard stuff.

I received a POPLA code yes.

Unfortunately, we are very far away from the incident, so cannot have photos of the site easily, apart from Google street view...

B789

Because it is addressed to your company, that means that the lease company have transferred liability away from themselves. However, as it is not PoFA compliant, in more ways than one, that is your main, but not only, appeal point to POPLA.

Fruitcake

Agreed. It cannot have your company's name and address on it AND have come from CEL unless the hire company passed the hirer's details to the PPC.

You should therefore treat it as a NTH, even though it does not use those words, and word your PoPLA appeal accordingly.

outraged_

Ok, thank you. It seems now that, since they sent a letter with no mention of Notice to Hirer or Notice to keeper, 26 days after the event, t is not POFA compliant.
However, I'm worried I might have messed up my first appeal as we believed it was a ringo location and sent the evidence saying that the parking was not due because it was free etc. They then said the location is different. It may give the impression that I was the driver... We still have no idea of the exact location of this car park, as it's not clear at all in the letter.

As for the checklist:

• Which car the ticket relates to - YES
• What land the car was parked on - YES, it gives an address Although very unclear from it where exactly it is
• The period the car was parked - YES
• Advise that the driver is liable for the parking charge and the amount and that it has not been paid in full - NO, THEY MAKE NO MENTION OF THIS WHATSOEVER
• State whether a notice to the driver was given either to the driver or placed on the vehicle and if so to repeat the information in that notice about paying the parking charge and when - NO, NOTHING OF THIS NATURE WAS WRITTEN
• Specify the outstanding amount of the parking charge and of the maximum additional costs they may seek to recover, and of the dispute resolution arrangements -NO, AS YOU CAN SEE ABOVE ALL THEY SAY WAS "PAYMENT NOT MADE IN ACCORDANCE WITH TERMS DISPLAYED ON SIGNAGE/PERMIT HOLDERS ONLY 
• Invite the registered keeper to pay the outstanding parking charge or, if he was not the driver,  to provide the name and address of the driver and to pass a copy of the notice on to that driver THEY DON'T ASK FOR THE DRIVER'S NAME ANYWHERE
• Identify the “creditor” who is legally entitled to recover the parking charge - THEY SAY IT'S CIVIL ENFORCEMENT LTD.
• Warn the keeper that if the parking charges remains outstanding after 28 days and the name and address of the driver has not been given, or otherwise known to the person entitled to the parking charge,  that “creditor” will be entitled to recover the parking charge from the registered keeper. NO, NOTHING SAYING ABOUT THE DRIVER. THEY USE THE TERM YOU, BUT IT'S ONLY IN THE COMPANY NAME, WHICH OBVIOUSLY IS NOT AN INDIVIDUAL SO CAN'T BE THE DRIVER.
• Details of the discount for payment within 14 days,   The Discount should be at least 40% of the full charge under the BPA Code of Practice (applies to BPA Members only) YES, PCN IS 100 THEY DISCOUNTED TO 60
• Date of the notice - ISSUED 13 APRIL, INCIDENT HAPPENED ON 18 MARCH, SO 26 DAYS LATER

Fruitcake

It is irrelevant if you suggested or hinted that it might have been you who was driving because you were not, and you must state/clarify this in your PoPLA.

As I said, treat as a NTH and appeal accordingly. The hirer/lessee is the day to day keeper as far as the PoFA is concerned. It is possible that the hire company told CEL that you were the driver rather than the hirer, which is why you have received a PCN as opposed to a NTH. Again, this is relevant.
You might want to say that the hire company cannot possibly know who was driving at the material time because they did not witness the event, and you did not tell the hire company who was driving. If the hire company said or implied that you were driving when you were not, then that is not only unproven hearsay, it is a false statement.

You must emphasise in your appeal that you are appealing as the hirer/lessee and that you were NOT the driver.

Use the relevant parts of the PoFA to assist you. This will include paragraphs 13 and 14, which the PPC will have failed to follow. They always do because they always fail to include the mandatory documents.

outraged_

But had the hire company said it, then they would have addressed to the driver, an individual, which they haven’t…

Coupon-mad

it only states my company name and address. 
Therefore I'm assuming it is a copy of the PCN issued to the hire company.

It isn't.

It's a non-compliant Notice to Hirer.

You simply state at the start of your company's POPLA appeal - which must be done in the name of the COMPANY whose name is on that PCN, not in your name - that your company was de facto impossible to have been the driver and nor was the individual filling out the company appeal.  The driver was an authorised and insured  driver who was legitimately using the vehicle in their own free time at this location (not on company business) and that driver will not be named.

The company is appealing against liability as hirer, after the first PCN went to the registered keeper (lease firm) who named this company as the hirer.

There were no enclosures with the PCN that was subsequently issued to this company (which isn't even headed as a Notice to Hirer) and as such, it wasn't a compliant Notice to Hirer.  POPLA cannot find the company liable outwith the set enclosures and wording requirements in paragraphs 13 & 14 of Schedule 4.

Then add the usual POPLA appeal paragraphs already written in the 3rd post of the NEWBIES thread, about no landowner authority, then unclear signage.
 DO NOT TICK THE POPLA BOX SAYING YOU ARE APPEALING 'ON BEHALF OF' ANYONE.

Fruitcake

outraged_ said:

But had the hire company said it, then they would have addressed to the driver, an individual, which they haven’t…

That's good. They cannot now claim to PoPLA that they know the identity of the driver.

Remember, you have the PCN, all of it, which we have not seen. We know how these companies operate and they will claim the keeper/hirer etcetera is the driver even when they have no proof.

Again, even if you suggested or CEL inferred that you were the driver, you simply and emphatically state that you were not. 
As C-m says, your company cannot have been the driver, the vehicle was leased, and you were not the hirer.

This should be an easy win at PoPLA for a non PoFA complaint PCN for a hire vehicle where the hirer and day to day keeper is a company.