FedEx/Control Account pursuit of VAT not owed

born_again

visidigi said:

raddougall said:

visidigi said:

raddougall said:

visidigi said:

To be clear for all - if you are approached to pay the charges by FedEx this is because the shipper told FedEx you were to pay them if they were levied.

FedEx are only doing what they were asked by the shipper, who is doing what you asked when you purchased goods from them.

"...who is doing what you asked when you purchased goods from them. " < you're making a large assumption here that the seller said this and also that the seller disclosed that they are shipping from abroad.

This is a dumb situation really because its a 3 way. Its like 3 people all arriving at a roundabout at the same time, I never agreed to charges, Fedex say I did and the seller told them to contact me, the seller never disclosed to me that it was from abroad, Fedex gave me no prior warning of this shipment having fees, I am supposed to pay VAT on things I import but did I really 'import' something if I had no idea.

It needs to change because consumers are getting shafted and they can't complain because it seems the deed as been done so they have no way not to accept this. In any other situation this would be called Fraud.

 
You are responsible for knowing when you buy something if there is importation required - you seem to be looking for any 'out' you can to absolve yourself of responsibility for buying an item - and throwing around words like scam and fraud doesn't exactly look like a good approach.

If the shipper you bought from didn't, in either website, or checkout process, inform you it was coming from abroad and/or that you would be liable for the import fees then your argument here isn't with FedEx, its will the seller you bought from.

If they did (and they generally do in those terms and conditions they have) then you were made aware and you should be paying the amounts (and the fees for doing so, as it would cost you far more to have cleared it yourself or via a broker).

You say FedEx didn't tell you, well check the shipment information - see if your email or mobile phone number was given to them by the shipper - if they didn't then there is no way for FedEx to tell you - the fact you got it in a letter means it looks highly likely the shipper didn't give the courier your contact information.

It doesn't need to change - its worked just fine for years and the laws cover it. What it depends on is the shipper being clear with you and giving the carrier enough information to be able to let the customer know.

Looking for an 'out'? I think you should probably keep your opinions of my motives to yourself. Neither helpful to me, or others on this forum.

Demanding a fee from someone after the fact when they have no knowledge of that fee and then saying 'well sorry you have it now' is in fact attempting to defraud someone. Somehow however, postal imports are excluded from that definition and get a free pass.

Fedex had my details but just told me there was a package coming. I knew there was and had no reason to think anything was wrong. There was no mention of charges until after they delivered and apparently by then its too late, I'm on the hook for something I never agreed to.

I have complained to the seller, they say they don't control UK laws, FedEx say its not their fault, HMRC say its not their fault. The seller is apparently overseas so I can't do anything to resolve this legally.

It may well have cost more to use my own clearance method... but that is an assumption that I would have still wanted the item. If I had known in advance the item was going to cost me 130% of the advertised price, I would not have bought it. If I had been told about the fees by FedEx in advance, I would have rejected the shipment.

So yes, it does need to change.

Bolded sentence - so you knew before it arrived it was coming from abroad then (as FedEx include this on the email) - so you could have refused it - and it wasn't 'a surprise that it was an international delivery then...

OP would still be liable for the charges. As the item has already been imported. So to claim duty etc back, they would have to fill in the forms & claim it back from HMRC or customs. 

visidigi

DullGreyGuy said:

visidigi said:

DullGreyGuy said:

visidigi said:

To be clear for all - if you are approached to pay the charges by FedEx this is because the shipper told FedEx you were to pay them if they were levied.

FedEx are only doing what they were asked by the shipper, who is doing what you asked when you purchased goods from them.

No, its the default for any shipment over £135 and FedEx only offer the option for the sender to pay to customers of a certain volume (at least at last checking as an associated wanted to offer landed prices but didn't have the volume).

Import duties have existed since 1207 in the UK, FedEx has been around since 1953... really hard to pin this on FedEx or the sender who probably are at least 700 years younger than importation tax

Sorry but its not - you are confusing the £135 VAT limit with the way in which you can ship with a carrier.

Any shipper who uses any of the big carriers can choose who pays the D&T, they can also declare the type of terms of sale to be DDU (deliver duty unpaid) or DDP (deliver duty paid), the shipper can assume the D&T charges as part of the process the have for selling goods. In addition during shipment creation they can also define an importer of record who is importing the goods, who is neither the shipper or the recipient - if using this, say if X is importing their product from China and Y is the shipper and Z is the recipient the IOR can by X and the D&T payment option, if they are paying would be classified as third party.

The process of shipping with a carrier allows the definition of the way in which a shipment is created - that's entirely different from the legalities of who collects VAT up to which threshold (as the Duties and taxes aren't just VAT in all cases there has to be a declaration by the shipper during shipping on what they want the carrier to do in regards to collection of them.

I'm not denying that DDP isn't an option in certain circumstances just that by default in the absence of any other instruction it is the receiver that is charged. 

Lets look at a basic example and the CN23 that you'd use as your declaration if you were sending goods abroad using RM/Parcel Force https://www.royalmail.com/sites/default/files/CN23.pdf 

You will note that nowhere on the declaration is there any reference to who is going to be paying the importation costs. As such you must therefore accept that there has to be a default option and in the case of this CN23 process the default would always apply as there is no other option to specify otherwise. The default in every country up until a few years ago was the recipient paid it, now its more complex as a few countries have created floors under which the sender is supposed to pay it (or a market place)

I accept I may be wrong and DDP is now an option open with all couriers to all senders but last time I checked it wasn't and anecdotally when posting items personally via various couriers its never been an option offered to me. 

Key piece of the CN23 process is in the notes:

"Your goods may be subject to restrictions. It is your responsibility to enquire into import and export regulations (prohibitions, restrictions such as quarantine, pharmaceutical restrictions, etc.) and to find out what documents, if any (commercial invoice, certificate of origin, health certificate, licence, authorization for goods subject to quarantine (plant, animal, food products, etc.) are required in the destination country."

Terms of sale would be on the CI If the destination required it for a commercial value shipment. 

The reason why the CN23 usually defaults to recipient is generally these are used for gifts, low value/sample by volume, but there is a process for declaring sale and clearance on the required associated documentation dependent on destination market requirements.

visidigi

born_again said:

visidigi said:

To be clear for all - if you are approached to pay the charges by FedEx this is because the shipper told FedEx you were to pay them if they were levied.

FedEx are only doing what they were asked by the shipper, who is doing what you asked when you purchased goods from them.

You mean by HMRC or customs. 👍

No, they are later in the process.

FedEx are submitting it for clearance as per the shipper requirements (bill me, recipient of third party) - then in turn is given to Customs/HMRC to facilitate clearance as per their determined liability on the shipment.

visidigi

born_again said:

visidigi said:

raddougall said:

visidigi said:

raddougall said:

visidigi said:

To be clear for all - if you are approached to pay the charges by FedEx this is because the shipper told FedEx you were to pay them if they were levied.

FedEx are only doing what they were asked by the shipper, who is doing what you asked when you purchased goods from them.

"...who is doing what you asked when you purchased goods from them. " < you're making a large assumption here that the seller said this and also that the seller disclosed that they are shipping from abroad.

This is a dumb situation really because its a 3 way. Its like 3 people all arriving at a roundabout at the same time, I never agreed to charges, Fedex say I did and the seller told them to contact me, the seller never disclosed to me that it was from abroad, Fedex gave me no prior warning of this shipment having fees, I am supposed to pay VAT on things I import but did I really 'import' something if I had no idea.

It needs to change because consumers are getting shafted and they can't complain because it seems the deed as been done so they have no way not to accept this. In any other situation this would be called Fraud.

 
You are responsible for knowing when you buy something if there is importation required - you seem to be looking for any 'out' you can to absolve yourself of responsibility for buying an item - and throwing around words like scam and fraud doesn't exactly look like a good approach.

If the shipper you bought from didn't, in either website, or checkout process, inform you it was coming from abroad and/or that you would be liable for the import fees then your argument here isn't with FedEx, its will the seller you bought from.

If they did (and they generally do in those terms and conditions they have) then you were made aware and you should be paying the amounts (and the fees for doing so, as it would cost you far more to have cleared it yourself or via a broker).

You say FedEx didn't tell you, well check the shipment information - see if your email or mobile phone number was given to them by the shipper - if they didn't then there is no way for FedEx to tell you - the fact you got it in a letter means it looks highly likely the shipper didn't give the courier your contact information.

It doesn't need to change - its worked just fine for years and the laws cover it. What it depends on is the shipper being clear with you and giving the carrier enough information to be able to let the customer know.

Looking for an 'out'? I think you should probably keep your opinions of my motives to yourself. Neither helpful to me, or others on this forum.

Demanding a fee from someone after the fact when they have no knowledge of that fee and then saying 'well sorry you have it now' is in fact attempting to defraud someone. Somehow however, postal imports are excluded from that definition and get a free pass.

Fedex had my details but just told me there was a package coming. I knew there was and had no reason to think anything was wrong. There was no mention of charges until after they delivered and apparently by then its too late, I'm on the hook for something I never agreed to.

I have complained to the seller, they say they don't control UK laws, FedEx say its not their fault, HMRC say its not their fault. The seller is apparently overseas so I can't do anything to resolve this legally.

It may well have cost more to use my own clearance method... but that is an assumption that I would have still wanted the item. If I had known in advance the item was going to cost me 130% of the advertised price, I would not have bought it. If I had been told about the fees by FedEx in advance, I would have rejected the shipment.

So yes, it does need to change.

Bolded sentence - so you knew before it arrived it was coming from abroad then (as FedEx include this on the email) - so you could have refused it - and it wasn't 'a surprise that it was an international delivery then...

OP would still be liable for the charges. As the item has already been imported. So to claim duty etc back, they would have to fill in the forms & claim it back from HMRC or customs. 

Depends on the carrier, they could ask for it to be returned to sender (so it doesn't get to clearance) or ask for it to be destroyed - if its destroyed prior to delivery the carrier should have the ability to remove the charge from applying.