FedEx/Control Account pursuit of VAT not owed

raddougall

visidigi said:

raddougall said:

visidigi said:

To be clear for all - if you are approached to pay the charges by FedEx this is because the shipper told FedEx you were to pay them if they were levied.

FedEx are only doing what they were asked by the shipper, who is doing what you asked when you purchased goods from them.

"...who is doing what you asked when you purchased goods from them. " < you're making a large assumption here that the seller said this and also that the seller disclosed that they are shipping from abroad.

This is a dumb situation really because its a 3 way. Its like 3 people all arriving at a roundabout at the same time, I never agreed to charges, Fedex say I did and the seller told them to contact me, the seller never disclosed to me that it was from abroad, Fedex gave me no prior warning of this shipment having fees, I am supposed to pay VAT on things I import but did I really 'import' something if I had no idea.

It needs to change because consumers are getting shafted and they can't complain because it seems the deed as been done so they have no way not to accept this. In any other situation this would be called Fraud.

 
You are responsible for knowing when you buy something if there is importation required - you seem to be looking for any 'out' you can to absolve yourself of responsibility for buying an item - and throwing around words like scam and fraud doesn't exactly look like a good approach.

If the shipper you bought from didn't, in either website, or checkout process, inform you it was coming from abroad and/or that you would be liable for the import fees then your argument here isn't with FedEx, its will the seller you bought from.

If they did (and they generally do in those terms and conditions they have) then you were made aware and you should be paying the amounts (and the fees for doing so, as it would cost you far more to have cleared it yourself or via a broker).

You say FedEx didn't tell you, well check the shipment information - see if your email or mobile phone number was given to them by the shipper - if they didn't then there is no way for FedEx to tell you - the fact you got it in a letter means it looks highly likely the shipper didn't give the courier your contact information.

It doesn't need to change - its worked just fine for years and the laws cover it. What it depends on is the shipper being clear with you and giving the carrier enough information to be able to let the customer know.

Looking for an 'out'? I think you should probably keep your opinions of my motives to yourself. Neither helpful to me, or others on this forum.

Demanding a fee from someone after the fact when they have no knowledge of that fee and then saying 'well sorry you have it now' is in fact attempting to defraud someone. Somehow however, postal imports are excluded from that definition and get a free pass.

Fedex had my details but just told me there was a package coming. I knew there was and had no reason to think anything was wrong. There was no mention of charges until after they delivered and apparently by then its too late, I'm on the hook for something I never agreed to.

I have complained to the seller, they say they don't control UK laws, FedEx say its not their fault, HMRC say its not their fault. The seller is apparently overseas so I can't do anything to resolve this legally.

It may well have cost more to use my own clearance method... but that is an assumption that I would have still wanted the item. If I had known in advance the item was going to cost me 130% of the advertised price, I would not have bought it. If I had been told about the fees by FedEx in advance, I would have rejected the shipment.

So yes, it does need to change.

powerful_Rogue

Contact you MP to get the law changed.

Duties (whether of customs or excise) charged on imported goods or other charges payable in respect of postal packets to which this section applies (whether payable to a postal operator or to a foreign administration) may be recovered by the postal operator concerned and in England and Wales and Northern Ireland may be so recovered as a civil debt due to him. https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/26/section/105

visidigi

raddougall said:

visidigi said:

raddougall said:

visidigi said:

To be clear for all - if you are approached to pay the charges by FedEx this is because the shipper told FedEx you were to pay them if they were levied.

FedEx are only doing what they were asked by the shipper, who is doing what you asked when you purchased goods from them.

"...who is doing what you asked when you purchased goods from them. " < you're making a large assumption here that the seller said this and also that the seller disclosed that they are shipping from abroad.

This is a dumb situation really because its a 3 way. Its like 3 people all arriving at a roundabout at the same time, I never agreed to charges, Fedex say I did and the seller told them to contact me, the seller never disclosed to me that it was from abroad, Fedex gave me no prior warning of this shipment having fees, I am supposed to pay VAT on things I import but did I really 'import' something if I had no idea.

It needs to change because consumers are getting shafted and they can't complain because it seems the deed as been done so they have no way not to accept this. In any other situation this would be called Fraud.

 
You are responsible for knowing when you buy something if there is importation required - you seem to be looking for any 'out' you can to absolve yourself of responsibility for buying an item - and throwing around words like scam and fraud doesn't exactly look like a good approach.

If the shipper you bought from didn't, in either website, or checkout process, inform you it was coming from abroad and/or that you would be liable for the import fees then your argument here isn't with FedEx, its will the seller you bought from.

If they did (and they generally do in those terms and conditions they have) then you were made aware and you should be paying the amounts (and the fees for doing so, as it would cost you far more to have cleared it yourself or via a broker).

You say FedEx didn't tell you, well check the shipment information - see if your email or mobile phone number was given to them by the shipper - if they didn't then there is no way for FedEx to tell you - the fact you got it in a letter means it looks highly likely the shipper didn't give the courier your contact information.

It doesn't need to change - its worked just fine for years and the laws cover it. What it depends on is the shipper being clear with you and giving the carrier enough information to be able to let the customer know.

Looking for an 'out'? I think you should probably keep your opinions of my motives to yourself. Neither helpful to me, or others on this forum.

Demanding a fee from someone after the fact when they have no knowledge of that fee and then saying 'well sorry you have it now' is in fact attempting to defraud someone. Somehow however, postal imports are excluded from that definition and get a free pass.

Fedex had my details but just told me there was a package coming. I knew there was and had no reason to think anything was wrong. There was no mention of charges until after they delivered and apparently by then its too late, I'm on the hook for something I never agreed to.

I have complained to the seller, they say they don't control UK laws, FedEx say its not their fault, HMRC say its not their fault. The seller is apparently overseas so I can't do anything to resolve this legally.

It may well have cost more to use my own clearance method... but that is an assumption that I would have still wanted the item. If I had known in advance the item was going to cost me 130% of the advertised price, I would not have bought it. If I had been told about the fees by FedEx in advance, I would have rejected the shipment.

So yes, it does need to change.

Bolded sentence - so you knew before it arrived it was coming from abroad then (as FedEx include this on the email) - so you could have refused it - and it wasn't 'a surprise that it was an international delivery then...

raddougall

visidigi said:

raddougall said:

visidigi said:

raddougall said:

visidigi said:

To be clear for all - if you are approached to pay the charges by FedEx this is because the shipper told FedEx you were to pay them if they were levied.

FedEx are only doing what they were asked by the shipper, who is doing what you asked when you purchased goods from them.

"...who is doing what you asked when you purchased goods from them. " < you're making a large assumption here that the seller said this and also that the seller disclosed that they are shipping from abroad.

This is a dumb situation really because its a 3 way. Its like 3 people all arriving at a roundabout at the same time, I never agreed to charges, Fedex say I did and the seller told them to contact me, the seller never disclosed to me that it was from abroad, Fedex gave me no prior warning of this shipment having fees, I am supposed to pay VAT on things I import but did I really 'import' something if I had no idea.

It needs to change because consumers are getting shafted and they can't complain because it seems the deed as been done so they have no way not to accept this. In any other situation this would be called Fraud.

 
You are responsible for knowing when you buy something if there is importation required - you seem to be looking for any 'out' you can to absolve yourself of responsibility for buying an item - and throwing around words like scam and fraud doesn't exactly look like a good approach.

If the shipper you bought from didn't, in either website, or checkout process, inform you it was coming from abroad and/or that you would be liable for the import fees then your argument here isn't with FedEx, its will the seller you bought from.

If they did (and they generally do in those terms and conditions they have) then you were made aware and you should be paying the amounts (and the fees for doing so, as it would cost you far more to have cleared it yourself or via a broker).

You say FedEx didn't tell you, well check the shipment information - see if your email or mobile phone number was given to them by the shipper - if they didn't then there is no way for FedEx to tell you - the fact you got it in a letter means it looks highly likely the shipper didn't give the courier your contact information.

It doesn't need to change - its worked just fine for years and the laws cover it. What it depends on is the shipper being clear with you and giving the carrier enough information to be able to let the customer know.

Looking for an 'out'? I think you should probably keep your opinions of my motives to yourself. Neither helpful to me, or others on this forum.

Demanding a fee from someone after the fact when they have no knowledge of that fee and then saying 'well sorry you have it now' is in fact attempting to defraud someone. Somehow however, postal imports are excluded from that definition and get a free pass.

Fedex had my details but just told me there was a package coming. I knew there was and had no reason to think anything was wrong. There was no mention of charges until after they delivered and apparently by then its too late, I'm on the hook for something I never agreed to.

I have complained to the seller, they say they don't control UK laws, FedEx say its not their fault, HMRC say its not their fault. The seller is apparently overseas so I can't do anything to resolve this legally.

It may well have cost more to use my own clearance method... but that is an assumption that I would have still wanted the item. If I had known in advance the item was going to cost me 130% of the advertised price, I would not have bought it. If I had been told about the fees by FedEx in advance, I would have rejected the shipment.

So yes, it does need to change.

Bolded sentence - so you knew before it arrived it was coming from abroad then (as FedEx include this on the email) - so you could have refused it - and it wasn't 'a surprise that it was an international delivery then...

No, that putting words in my mouth. I said I had an email from them, not that I knew is was from abroad or that it contained that information. I can't even find it now so maybe I didn't. But here's another FedEx email, it does not mention where its coming from, only the sellers name.

If they could tell you it was coming from abroad then they could tell you it was going to have charges even before it was delivered... but they don't do either. Why is that?

And even they did tell you the origin, that is making the assumption that someone would know that a parcel coming from abroad would have other charges. Having never purchased anything direct from abroad before (but remember I didn't even know it was being sent from outside the UK), on what basis could anyone be expected to know this information. 

Anyway, this is turning into a pointless debate that could go on forever, and that's not the point of this thread. For anyone else that's interested...

We've established that postal companies have special dispensation to levy charges on recipients regardless of if they know about or agree to those charges, in contradiction to probably every other part of consumer law that deals with fees and charges.

We also have established that the dispute should be with the seller, but the very nature of this discussion means that the seller is outside of the UK and as such, I would have limited means of recourse against them if they just say its not their problem.

We've established that I have no way to reject the parcel because FedEx either leave it on the doorstep or give it to anyone that opens the door with no warning, notice or otherwise that this is an international import and then send a bill weeks later. In any other transaction I would be within my rights to cancel a transaction if the costs changed after the purchase was made but not here.

I believe I can return the parcel, but then I have to pay return shipping, pay the tax and then faff about with HMRC trying to get a refund after the fact. And that is on the assumption that I can subsequently get a refund for that return.... given the nature of the seller being abroad again, that is a risky business if they are not cooperating.

Its messed up.

DullGreyGuy

visidigi said:

To be clear for all - if you are approached to pay the charges by FedEx this is because the shipper told FedEx you were to pay them if they were levied.

FedEx are only doing what they were asked by the shipper, who is doing what you asked when you purchased goods from them.

No, its the default for any shipment over £135 and FedEx only offer the option for the sender to pay to customers of a certain volume (at least at last checking as an associated wanted to offer landed prices but didn't have the volume).

Import duties have existed since 1207 in the UK, FedEx has been around since 1953... really hard to pin this on FedEx or the sender who probably are at least 700 years younger than importation tax

visidigi

raddougall said:

visidigi said:

raddougall said:

visidigi said:

raddougall said:

visidigi said:

To be clear for all - if you are approached to pay the charges by FedEx this is because the shipper told FedEx you were to pay them if they were levied.

FedEx are only doing what they were asked by the shipper, who is doing what you asked when you purchased goods from them.

"...who is doing what you asked when you purchased goods from them. " < you're making a large assumption here that the seller said this and also that the seller disclosed that they are shipping from abroad.

This is a dumb situation really because its a 3 way. Its like 3 people all arriving at a roundabout at the same time, I never agreed to charges, Fedex say I did and the seller told them to contact me, the seller never disclosed to me that it was from abroad, Fedex gave me no prior warning of this shipment having fees, I am supposed to pay VAT on things I import but did I really 'import' something if I had no idea.

It needs to change because consumers are getting shafted and they can't complain because it seems the deed as been done so they have no way not to accept this. In any other situation this would be called Fraud.

 
You are responsible for knowing when you buy something if there is importation required - you seem to be looking for any 'out' you can to absolve yourself of responsibility for buying an item - and throwing around words like scam and fraud doesn't exactly look like a good approach.

If the shipper you bought from didn't, in either website, or checkout process, inform you it was coming from abroad and/or that you would be liable for the import fees then your argument here isn't with FedEx, its will the seller you bought from.

If they did (and they generally do in those terms and conditions they have) then you were made aware and you should be paying the amounts (and the fees for doing so, as it would cost you far more to have cleared it yourself or via a broker).

You say FedEx didn't tell you, well check the shipment information - see if your email or mobile phone number was given to them by the shipper - if they didn't then there is no way for FedEx to tell you - the fact you got it in a letter means it looks highly likely the shipper didn't give the courier your contact information.

It doesn't need to change - its worked just fine for years and the laws cover it. What it depends on is the shipper being clear with you and giving the carrier enough information to be able to let the customer know.

Looking for an 'out'? I think you should probably keep your opinions of my motives to yourself. Neither helpful to me, or others on this forum.

Demanding a fee from someone after the fact when they have no knowledge of that fee and then saying 'well sorry you have it now' is in fact attempting to defraud someone. Somehow however, postal imports are excluded from that definition and get a free pass.

Fedex had my details but just told me there was a package coming. I knew there was and had no reason to think anything was wrong. There was no mention of charges until after they delivered and apparently by then its too late, I'm on the hook for something I never agreed to.

I have complained to the seller, they say they don't control UK laws, FedEx say its not their fault, HMRC say its not their fault. The seller is apparently overseas so I can't do anything to resolve this legally.

It may well have cost more to use my own clearance method... but that is an assumption that I would have still wanted the item. If I had known in advance the item was going to cost me 130% of the advertised price, I would not have bought it. If I had been told about the fees by FedEx in advance, I would have rejected the shipment.

So yes, it does need to change.

Bolded sentence - so you knew before it arrived it was coming from abroad then (as FedEx include this on the email) - so you could have refused it - and it wasn't 'a surprise that it was an international delivery then...

No, that putting words in my mouth. I said I had an email from them, not that I knew is was from abroad or that it contained that information. I can't even find it now so maybe I didn't. But here's another FedEx email, it does not mention where its coming from, only the sellers name.

If they could tell you it was coming from abroad then they could tell you it was going to have charges even before it was delivered... but they don't do either. Why is that?

And even they did tell you the origin, that is making the assumption that someone would know that a parcel coming from abroad would have other charges. Having never purchased anything direct from abroad before (but remember I didn't even know it was being sent from outside the UK), on what basis could anyone be expected to know this information. 

Anyway, this is turning into a pointless debate that could go on forever, and that's not the point of this thread. For anyone else that's interested...

We've established that postal companies have special dispensation to levy charges on recipients regardless of if they know about or agree to those charges, in contradiction to probably every other part of consumer law that deals with fees and charges.

We also have established that the dispute should be with the seller, but the very nature of this discussion means that the seller is outside of the UK and as such, I would have limited means of recourse against them if they just say its not their problem.

We've established that I have no way to reject the parcel because FedEx either leave it on the doorstep or give it to anyone that opens the door with no warning, notice or otherwise that this is an international import and then send a bill weeks later. In any other transaction I would be within my rights to cancel a transaction if the costs changed after the purchase was made but not here.

I believe I can return the parcel, but then I have to pay return shipping, pay the tax and then faff about with HMRC trying to get a refund after the fact. And that is on the assumption that I can subsequently get a refund for that return.... given the nature of the seller being abroad again, that is a risky business if they are not cooperating.

Its messed up.

Clicking the tracking number in the email shows you the origin and destination of the shipment. They can't necessarily tell you its going to have taxes on it as it hasn't cleared when they tell you something is on its way to you.

It's not a FedEx issue you have, its a general international importation issue you seemingly want to change, as others have pointed out you should raise that up through your MP if its important to you.

visidigi

DullGreyGuy said:

visidigi said:

To be clear for all - if you are approached to pay the charges by FedEx this is because the shipper told FedEx you were to pay them if they were levied.

FedEx are only doing what they were asked by the shipper, who is doing what you asked when you purchased goods from them.

No, its the default for any shipment over £135 and FedEx only offer the option for the sender to pay to customers of a certain volume (at least at last checking as an associated wanted to offer landed prices but didn't have the volume).

Import duties have existed since 1207 in the UK, FedEx has been around since 1953... really hard to pin this on FedEx or the sender who probably are at least 700 years younger than importation tax

Sorry but its not - you are confusing the £135 VAT limit with the way in which you can ship with a carrier.

Any shipper who uses any of the big carriers can choose who pays the D&T, they can also declare the type of terms of sale to be DDU (deliver duty unpaid) or DDP (deliver duty paid), the shipper can assume the D&T charges as part of the process the have for selling goods. In addition during shipment creation they can also define an importer of record who is importing the goods, who is neither the shipper or the recipient - if using this, say if X is importing their product from China and Y is the shipper and Z is the recipient the IOR can by X and the D&T payment option, if they are paying would be classified as third party.

The process of shipping with a carrier allows the definition of the way in which a shipment is created - that's entirely different from the legalities of who collects VAT up to which threshold (as the Duties and taxes aren't just VAT in all cases there has to be a declaration by the shipper during shipping on what they want the carrier to do in regards to collection of them.

DullGreyGuy

visidigi said:

DullGreyGuy said:

visidigi said:

To be clear for all - if you are approached to pay the charges by FedEx this is because the shipper told FedEx you were to pay them if they were levied.

FedEx are only doing what they were asked by the shipper, who is doing what you asked when you purchased goods from them.

No, its the default for any shipment over £135 and FedEx only offer the option for the sender to pay to customers of a certain volume (at least at last checking as an associated wanted to offer landed prices but didn't have the volume).

Import duties have existed since 1207 in the UK, FedEx has been around since 1953... really hard to pin this on FedEx or the sender who probably are at least 700 years younger than importation tax

Sorry but its not - you are confusing the £135 VAT limit with the way in which you can ship with a carrier.

Any shipper who uses any of the big carriers can choose who pays the D&T, they can also declare the type of terms of sale to be DDU (deliver duty unpaid) or DDP (deliver duty paid), the shipper can assume the D&T charges as part of the process the have for selling goods. In addition during shipment creation they can also define an importer of record who is importing the goods, who is neither the shipper or the recipient - if using this, say if X is importing their product from China and Y is the shipper and Z is the recipient the IOR can by X and the D&T payment option, if they are paying would be classified as third party.

The process of shipping with a carrier allows the definition of the way in which a shipment is created - that's entirely different from the legalities of who collects VAT up to which threshold (as the Duties and taxes aren't just VAT in all cases there has to be a declaration by the shipper during shipping on what they want the carrier to do in regards to collection of them.

I'm not denying that DDP isn't an option in certain circumstances just that by default in the absence of any other instruction it is the receiver that is charged. 

Lets look at a basic example and the CN23 that you'd use as your declaration if you were sending goods abroad using RM/Parcel Force https://www.royalmail.com/sites/default/files/CN23.pdf 

You will note that nowhere on the declaration is there any reference to who is going to be paying the importation costs. As such you must therefore accept that there has to be a default option and in the case of this CN23 process the default would always apply as there is no other option to specify otherwise. The default in every country up until a few years ago was the recipient paid it, now its more complex as a few countries have created floors under which the sender is supposed to pay it (or a market place)

I accept I may be wrong and DDP is now an option open with all couriers to all senders but last time I checked it wasn't and anecdotally when posting items personally via various couriers its never been an option offered to me. 

Jonboy_1984

Generally as a shipper DDP needs a separate application and second or increased credit facility with the carrier(potentially with a bank guarantee or similar depending on volume). 

This is because the carriers domestic office you ship with don’t know the level of taxes in the destination country, and are effectively writing a blank cheque for you to repay later as they have to pay the receiving country’s tax office even if you fail to pay them….

(or the parcel gets delayed whilst they ship it too port, get the import rates, bill the shipper, collect payment and then release, which also needs it owns expensive infrastructure).



Just to touch on one other point the OP mentioned, it isn’t that the rules are “exempt from consumer legislation”, it is simply that they originate from tax law rather than consumer law and Parliament prioritised getting paid over the fine mechanics of individual situations.



If the shipper genuinely misrepresented the origin of goods, and suggested they were shipping from the UK, and the OP has paid by credit card (and without intermediaries such as PayPal) they may have recourse via their card provider via section 75.

born_again

visidigi said:

To be clear for all - if you are approached to pay the charges by FedEx this is because the shipper told FedEx you were to pay them if they were levied.

FedEx are only doing what they were asked by the shipper, who is doing what you asked when you purchased goods from them.

You mean by HMRC or customs. 👍