TfL plans to stop the paper One Day all zones Travelcard (and Travelcard add-ons to rail tickets)

MilesT6060842

jon81uk said:

MilesT6060842 said:

jon81uk said:

<snipped for brevity>

My understanding is the overwhelming majority of longer distance trips into London are cheaper on Travel card, and don't discount the comfort of simplicity and certainty of money spent as well as a benefit. 

Yes some trips that start in outer London zones might be cheaper, but what of that?  Travelcards still a benefit for a decent number of potential visitors, and this is why it is short sighted, discouraging UK tourism into the capital to benefit the "GDP" of the capital.

Yes there should be more tourism to the provinces, levelling up an all that, much to see out of London as well, and some useful one day/multi day unlimited "Rover" type bus and train tickets available in various regions to support tourism (and the lesser known "plusbus" scheme if travelling by rail), so why not London?

If its just about simplicity then the train operating companies and the department for transport just need to change the ticket to cost ticket to London plus TfL daily cap. That way they can pass the full value of the daily ticket to TfL and the full value of the train ticket to the train operator. If its about subsiding the cost of travel then the government need to be willing to actually subsidise travel. Whereas at present TfL aren't getting enough fare income to cover the costs and the government aren't willing to subsidise anything. So either increase the travelcard price so TfL get the same income they would if people paid directly to TfL instead of via the TOC or the DfT change the fare structure so there is a proper subsidy that is evenly applied rather than the travel card being cheaper on some routes than others.

@jon81uk and @Spoonie_Turtle

You are both missing key points, especially with regards to family travel for train+travelcard tickets (rather than TfL London oly travelcards).   Sure, it would be possible to make PAYG fares good value;  however it is unlikely that rail fare plus London PAYG will be as good value as current travelcard, unlikely to discount PAYG fare to make the price the same as travelcard in all cases.

But for a family just wanting an occasional day out in London (maybe only once in a few years) there is a complexity and financial disadvantage to PAYG.  PAYG needs an Oyster card or a contactless payment card for each person travelling (including children).  Which creates an upfront cost and complexity for families, which is a barrier that will turn some families off travelling in by train, or even travelling at all.  And also PAYG does not enable discount of various railcards, travelcards do.  Ditto group rail discounts for larger groups would discount the travelcard portion as well

Oyster now cost £7, non-refundable, no fare credit.  In practice you need to put at least 5 credit on the card, so that's £12 per person to start (£36 for a family of 3).  Yes you can reuse them next time or maybe sell them on, but that's more complex than just buying a travelcard.  And to get child fare discount PAYG you need to know to find someone in the station to get the card flagged as child (only for the day!).  Or preplan the trip to get a Zip card in the post beforehand.  All of which is a barrier.

Not all families will be able to muster separate contactless payment cards for every family member travelling, to do PAYG travel that way (no child discount possible either).  So that's a barrier.

Now try and sell me that withdrawing the Travelcard is "No impact" and a "Good idea", I'm all ears....

Spoonie_Turtle

MilesT6060842 said:

jon81uk said:

MilesT6060842 said:

jon81uk said:

<snipped for brevity>

My understanding is the overwhelming majority of longer distance trips into London are cheaper on Travel card, and don't discount the comfort of simplicity and certainty of money spent as well as a benefit. 

Yes some trips that start in outer London zones might be cheaper, but what of that?  Travelcards still a benefit for a decent number of potential visitors, and this is why it is short sighted, discouraging UK tourism into the capital to benefit the "GDP" of the capital.

Yes there should be more tourism to the provinces, levelling up an all that, much to see out of London as well, and some useful one day/multi day unlimited "Rover" type bus and train tickets available in various regions to support tourism (and the lesser known "plusbus" scheme if travelling by rail), so why not London?

If its just about simplicity then the train operating companies and the department for transport just need to change the ticket to cost ticket to London plus TfL daily cap. That way they can pass the full value of the daily ticket to TfL and the full value of the train ticket to the train operator. If its about subsiding the cost of travel then the government need to be willing to actually subsidise travel. Whereas at present TfL aren't getting enough fare income to cover the costs and the government aren't willing to subsidise anything. So either increase the travelcard price so TfL get the same income they would if people paid directly to TfL instead of via the TOC or the DfT change the fare structure so there is a proper subsidy that is evenly applied rather than the travel card being cheaper on some routes than others.

@jon81uk and @Spoonie_Turtle

You are both missing key points, especially with regards to family travel for train+travelcard tickets (rather than TfL London oly travelcards).   

I don't think I am, I'm simply all for making the railcard prices slightly less good value if it's the only way of keeping them.  I am completely against getting rid of them for all the reasons you've given. 

And the impact on me personally will be very difficult, part of my disability is fluctuating cognitive impairment so trying to find out about the London fares and how I get the best value will be extremely difficult.  Additionally, we won't be able to go for occasional family days out in London - with such convenient public transport that we can use all from one map/app - because some family members will not use contactless PAYG even if I could understand it enough to explain to them.

When I got an Oyster card years ago it was £5 but that was similar to getting a free SIM card with credit on.  Are you saying the Oyster card costs £7 before you even get credit?!  And I don't know if companion discounts through railcards can be done through Oyster either, which will curtail much of the travel I would like to do. 

I'm actually devastated by the plans and furious that they think withdrawing them is an acceptable solution.  (This along with them wanting close National Rail ticket offices and destaffing a load of stations, it's going to be even more difficult to be a disabled train traveller than it already is.)

KeithP

Spoonie_Turtle said:

I'm actually devastated by the plans and furious that they think withdrawing them is an acceptable solution.

Hopefully you expressed your dissatisfaction in the 'consultation' mentioned in the opening post on this thread.
The consultation was open from 18th April to 6th June this year and has now closed.

jon81uk

MilesT6060842 said:

jon81uk said:

MilesT6060842 said:

jon81uk said:

<snipped for brevity>

My understanding is the overwhelming majority of longer distance trips into London are cheaper on Travel card, and don't discount the comfort of simplicity and certainty of money spent as well as a benefit. 

Yes some trips that start in outer London zones might be cheaper, but what of that?  Travelcards still a benefit for a decent number of potential visitors, and this is why it is short sighted, discouraging UK tourism into the capital to benefit the "GDP" of the capital.

Yes there should be more tourism to the provinces, levelling up an all that, much to see out of London as well, and some useful one day/multi day unlimited "Rover" type bus and train tickets available in various regions to support tourism (and the lesser known "plusbus" scheme if travelling by rail), so why not London?

If its just about simplicity then the train operating companies and the department for transport just need to change the ticket to cost ticket to London plus TfL daily cap. That way they can pass the full value of the daily ticket to TfL and the full value of the train ticket to the train operator. If its about subsiding the cost of travel then the government need to be willing to actually subsidise travel. Whereas at present TfL aren't getting enough fare income to cover the costs and the government aren't willing to subsidise anything. So either increase the travelcard price so TfL get the same income they would if people paid directly to TfL instead of via the TOC or the DfT change the fare structure so there is a proper subsidy that is evenly applied rather than the travel card being cheaper on some routes than others.

@jon81uk and @Spoonie_Turtle

You are both missing key points, especially with regards to family travel for train+travelcard tickets (rather than TfL London oly travelcards).   Sure, it would be possible to make PAYG fares good value;  however it is unlikely that rail fare plus London PAYG will be as good value as current travelcard, unlikely to discount PAYG fare to make the price the same as travelcard in all cases.

But for a family just wanting an occasional day out in London (maybe only once in a few years) there is a complexity and financial disadvantage to PAYG.  PAYG needs an Oyster card or a contactless payment card for each person travelling (including children).  Which creates an upfront cost and complexity for families, which is a barrier that will turn some families off travelling in by train, or even travelling at all.  And also PAYG does not enable discount of various railcards, travelcards do.  Ditto group rail discounts for larger groups would discount the travelcard portion as well

Oyster now cost £7, non-refundable, no fare credit.  In practice you need to put at least 5 credit on the card, so that's £12 per person to start (£36 for a family of 3).  Yes you can reuse them next time or maybe sell them on, but that's more complex than just buying a travelcard.  And to get child fare discount PAYG you need to know to find someone in the station to get the card flagged as child (only for the day!).  Or preplan the trip to get a Zip card in the post beforehand.  All of which is a barrier.

Not all families will be able to muster separate contactless payment cards for every family member travelling, to do PAYG travel that way (no child discount possible either).  So that's a barrier.

Now try and sell me that withdrawing the Travelcard is "No impact" and a "Good idea", I'm all ears....

I think travel for visiting families to London is a bit of a mess currently anyway so I do agree there are issues, but children under 11 don't need any sort of ticket, they just walk through the barrier for free. Simpilist would be to just make accompanied travel for all under 16s free and only require the Zip card for unaccompanied. Although currently travelcards make it a bit easier currently I think they do need to reconsider family travel as paper tickets on TfL are slowly going away. The current under 16 visitor travel is a mess anyway.

But excluding the issue of visiting children the issue is that the DfT isn't willing to subsidise travel (they aren't giving more grants to TfL) and TfL rightly don't want to subsidise travel for those coming in outside of London either. So even if the one-day travelcard remains it needs to go up in price to something closer to rail ticket to London plus the TfL cap. Or the government stop trying to make this a Conservative vs Labour London Mayor war and actually put the resources into DfT and overhaul the entire National Rail ticketing system. It should be possible for everyone to know that London travel will be X amount on top of my rail ticket, but currently it is a few pounds on some routes/operators and a significant amount on others. This is a failing of the National Rail ticketing system.

Spoonie_Turtle

KeithP said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

I'm actually devastated by the plans and furious that they think withdrawing them is an acceptable solution.

Hopefully you expressed your dissatisfaction in the 'consultation' mentioned in the opening post on this thread.
The consultation was open from 18th April to 6th June this year and has now closed.

I did, since thankfully I came across it by chance before it closed - certainly was not well publicised!  Although when enquiring if I had the right e-mail address before sending my comments, I was told it was an "engagement" rather than an actual consultation.

MilesT6060842

<much snipped for brevity>

@jon81uk and @Spoonie_Turtle

You are both missing key points, especially with regards to family travel for train+travelcard tickets (rather than TfL London only travelcards).   

I don't think I am, I'm simply all for making the railcard prices slightly less good value if it's the only way of keeping them.  I am completely against getting rid of them for all the reasons you've given. 

And the impact on me personally will be very difficult, part of my disability is fluctuating cognitive impairment so trying to find out about the London fares and how I get the best value will be extremely difficult.  Additionally, we won't be able to go for occasional family days out in London - with such convenient public transport that we can use all from one map/app - because some family members will not use contactless PAYG even if I could understand it enough to explain to them.

When I got an Oyster card years ago it was £5 but that was similar to getting a free SIM card with credit on.  Are you saying the Oyster card costs £7 before you even get credit?!  And I don't know if companion discounts through railcards can be done through Oyster either, which will curtail much of the travel I would like to do. 

I'm actually devastated by the plans and furious that they think withdrawing them is an acceptable solution.  (This along with them wanting close National Rail ticket offices and destaffing a load of stations, it's going to be even more difficult to be a disabled train traveller than it already is.)

Oyster cards:  Yes these now cost £7 with no included fare credit, ever.  There was an interim period where you paid £7 and got that back after 1 year as a credit, but no more.

No, I don't think you can get an companion discount on Oyster or Contactless.  Oyster can be "flagged" for some national railcard discounts (including disabled, senior, veterans, youth/student, but not Network, TwoTogether, or Family I think), and can be flagged for child (for the day).  You need to find a gateline person who should be able to do this.

Personally, I would prefer ticket offices to be closed as long as they move the service to post offices and corner shops--expanding the service to places which have never had an office or haven't had for some years.  Needs a variant of a sales website like trainline that can sell tickets "on account" (i.e. you don't hand over payment card to the person operating the system, and can pay cash), tickets printed on plain paper or a commonly available receipt printer hardware.  And a post-hoc mis-selling refund claim process run centrally, and also telephone sales.  I have said as much to the consultation

Spoonie_Turtle

MilesT6060842 said:

<much snipped for brevity>

@jon81uk and @Spoonie_Turtle

You are both missing key points, especially with regards to family travel for train+travelcard tickets (rather than TfL London only travelcards).   

I don't think I am, I'm simply all for making the railcard prices slightly less good value if it's the only way of keeping them.  I am completely against getting rid of them for all the reasons you've given. 

And the impact on me personally will be very difficult, part of my disability is fluctuating cognitive impairment so trying to find out about the London fares and how I get the best value will be extremely difficult.  Additionally, we won't be able to go for occasional family days out in London - with such convenient public transport that we can use all from one map/app - because some family members will not use contactless PAYG even if I could understand it enough to explain to them.

When I got an Oyster card years ago it was £5 but that was similar to getting a free SIM card with credit on.  Are you saying the Oyster card costs £7 before you even get credit?!  And I don't know if companion discounts through railcards can be done through Oyster either, which will curtail much of the travel I would like to do. 

I'm actually devastated by the plans and furious that they think withdrawing them is an acceptable solution.  (This along with them wanting close National Rail ticket offices and destaffing a load of stations, it's going to be even more difficult to be a disabled train traveller than it already is.)

Oyster cards:  Yes these now cost £7 with no included fare credit, ever.  There was an interim period where you paid £7 and got that back after 1 year as a credit, but no more.

No, I don't think you can get an companion discount on Oyster or Contactless.  Oyster can be "flagged" for some national railcard discounts (including disabled, senior, veterans, youth/student, but not Network, TwoTogether, or Family I think), and can be flagged for child (for the day).  You need to find a gateline person who should be able to do this.

Personally, I would prefer ticket offices to be closed as long as they move the service to post offices and corner shops--expanding the service to places which have never had an office or haven't had for some years.  Needs a variant of a sales website like trainline that can sell tickets "on account" (i.e. you don't hand over payment card to the person operating the system, and can pay cash), tickets printed on plain paper or a commonly available receipt printer hardware.  And a post-hoc mis-selling refund claim process run centrally, and also telephone sales.  I have said as much to the consultation

Disabled railcard comes with a 30% companion discount, recognising that many of us cannot travel alone.  Losing that for travel in London would be a huge blow.

Although a wheelchair user staying in their chair plus any companion currently gets a 50% discount without needing a railcard, which is only available to buy in person from the ticket office (or conductor, for lines that have those and are set up to sell tickets - our local commuter line through London doesn't).

Ticket offices are the point of contact for people needing assistance, if we have to wander aroubd stations to find someone that takes precious time and energy.  For blind/VI people especially that's unsafe, especially with 40% of stations still not having tactile paving at the edges of platforms.

There is no alternative that meets everyone's needs.  If the member of staff will be staying in one spot for people to find when needing assistance … why not in a ticket office?!

Plus along with the closing offices plans, several companies are planning to destaff stations - but not completely, as they'll be visited once a day or once a week (!!!) by mobile staff - rendering those stations unusable for people who need assistance.  Any potential mitigations like booking assistance in advance still erase our legal right to turn up and go.

But this is off topic.  Thank you for the info about Oyster as it now stands, it's worse than I feared as I previously didn't know you actually had to pay to get a card.  (When I got one for the £5 credit many years ago, I mean it was in the 00s, *many* years ago.)

jon81uk

You've always had to pay to get an Oyster card the deposit used to be refundable, but it was never just credit, it was only refunded if you asked for the card to be fully refunded. Originally season tickets didn't need the deposit, but PAYG always has.

As above, there was a brief period where you got the deposit back after one year, but prior to that it was only refunded if the card is deactivated.

MilesT6060842

Spoonie_Turtle said:

much snipped

Disabled railcard comes with a 30% companion discount, recognising that many of us cannot travel alone.  Losing that for travel in London would be a huge blow.

Although a wheelchair user staying in their chair plus any companion currently gets a 50% discount without needing a railcard, which is only available to buy in person from the ticket office (or conductor, for lines that have those and are set up to sell tickets - our local commuter line through London doesn't).

Ticket offices are the point of contact for people needing assistance, if we have to wander aroubd stations to find someone that takes precious time and energy.  For blind/VI people especially that's unsafe, especially with 40% of stations still not having tactile paving at the edges of platforms.

There is no alternative that meets everyone's needs.  If the member of staff will be staying in one spot for people to find when needing assistance … why not in a ticket office?!

Plus along with the closing offices plans, several companies are planning to destaff stations - but not completely, as they'll be visited once a day or once a week (!!!) by mobile staff - rendering those stations unusable for people who need assistance.  Any potential mitigations like booking assistance in advance still erase our legal right to turn up and go.

But this is off topic.  Thank you for the info about Oyster as it now stands, it's worse than I feared as I previously didn't know you actually had to pay to get a card.  (When I got one for the £5 credit many years ago, I mean it was in the 00s, *many* years ago.)

Point well made about the needs of VI travellers, which I had not fully considered, especially on a turn up and go basis (and sadly this is a matter of legal tort whether turn up and go enablement for disabled travel is a legal right per Equality act, is there case law precedent or specific wording in legislation/regulation?)

But even with regards to that, is retention of staffed ticket offices the best outcome for majority across all stations, not just those which currently have a staffed office.   While this should not be an "either or" discussion, politically it is likely to be, and I feel the campaign for change should focus on the investment that delivers the broadest benefits (and clearly retention of  staffed offices available at only a fairly small subset of stations doesn't fit that concept, even if those stations are a higher percentage of journeys taken).  Taking away staffing from stations is also a clear "divide and conquer" move politically of uneven current benefits, and a misdirection of the populace into a negative campaign from a positive campaign to provide potentially better alternatives.

Increasingly there are standardised voice help points (free to use) at stations (these could be video, and need to be rolled out to all stations as standard, and in more locations round the station).

A capital works programme to improve VI provisioning (to a higher standard) for all stations would enable more journeys.  I'm thinking tactile paving throughout the station, tactile/high vis maps on station entrances, real time high vis/voice wayfinding (which platform do I need, how do I get there?), multiple access points, and similar.  Maybe realtime wayfinding via mobile phone call and CCTV (call up for remote wayfinding assistance)?  Expanding out to local wayfinding for inter-modal travel.

Also Radar key toilets on most stations (even if there is no other toilet provision), holistically integrated into the wayfinding and remote assistance

Making companion travel less costly and better known would also be helpful--potentially integrating disabled travel discounts into the blue badge scheme

Spoonie_Turtle

MilesT6060842 said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

much snipped

Disabled railcard comes with a 30% companion discount, recognising that many of us cannot travel alone.  Losing that for travel in London would be a huge blow.

Although a wheelchair user staying in their chair plus any companion currently gets a 50% discount without needing a railcard, which is only available to buy in person from the ticket office (or conductor, for lines that have those and are set up to sell tickets - our local commuter line through London doesn't).

Ticket offices are the point of contact for people needing assistance, if we have to wander aroubd stations to find someone that takes precious time and energy.  For blind/VI people especially that's unsafe, especially with 40% of stations still not having tactile paving at the edges of platforms.

There is no alternative that meets everyone's needs.  If the member of staff will be staying in one spot for people to find when needing assistance … why not in a ticket office?!

Plus along with the closing offices plans, several companies are planning to destaff stations - but not completely, as they'll be visited once a day or once a week (!!!) by mobile staff - rendering those stations unusable for people who need assistance.  Any potential mitigations like booking assistance in advance still erase our legal right to turn up and go.

But this is off topic.  Thank you for the info about Oyster as it now stands, it's worse than I feared as I previously didn't know you actually had to pay to get a card.  (When I got one for the £5 credit many years ago, I mean it was in the 00s, *many* years ago.)

Point well made about the needs of VI travellers, which I had not fully considered, especially on a turn up and go basis (and sadly this is a matter of legal tort whether turn up and go enablement for disabled travel is a legal right per Equality act, is there case law precedent or specific wording in legislation/regulation?)

But even with regards to that, is retention of staffed ticket offices the best outcome for majority across all stations, not just those which currently have a staffed office.   While this should not be an "either or" discussion, politically it is likely to be, and I feel the campaign for change should focus on the investment that delivers the broadest benefits (and clearly retention of  staffed offices available at only a fairly small subset of stations doesn't fit that concept, even if those stations are a higher percentage of journeys taken).  Taking away staffing from stations is also a clear "divide and conquer" move politically of uneven current benefits, and a misdirection of the populace into a negative campaign from a positive campaign to provide potentially better alternatives.

Increasingly there are standardised voice help points (free to use) at stations (these could be video, and need to be rolled out to all stations as standard, and in more locations round the station).

A capital works programme to improve VI provisioning (to a higher standard) for all stations would enable more journeys.  I'm thinking tactile paving throughout the station, tactile/high vis maps on station entrances, real time high vis/voice wayfinding (which platform do I need, how do I get there?), multiple access points, and similar.  Maybe realtime wayfinding via mobile phone call and CCTV (call up for remote wayfinding assistance)?  Expanding out to local wayfinding for inter-modal travel.

Also Radar key toilets on most stations (even if there is no other toilet provision), holistically integrated into the wayfinding and remote assistance

Making companion travel less costly and better known would also be helpful--potentially integrating disabled travel discounts into the blue badge scheme

Good points, and greater accessibility would certainly allow more independent travel, but tech etc. still cannot replace physical assistance for those who do need it.  I've experienced the human element so many times recently, when things go wrong and the humans sort it - like booking a taxi when we couldn't complete the final leg of our journey due to lifts not working, phoning through to an interchange station to get the connecting train to wait for us (this on a rural line with ~2hrs between trains), being sold tickets that were actually cheaper than the combination I thought would be cheapest, etc.

Ticket machines are also inaccessible to a lot of people - many wheelchair users, blind/VI people, people with cognitive or learning disabilities (including dyslexia - very common).  There is a fair overlap between people who cannot or struggle to use TVMs, with those who struggle to book online, or simply cannot at all.

I'm not aware of anyone calling for currently unstaffed stations to be restaffed, just to not lose the staff where they already are!  More staffing would probably enable more people to travel but that would be a separate battle.

Please don't tie anything more to the Blue Badge scheme, so many people are unfairly denied them (people who do meet the criteria but councol assessors say no) plus the criteria are already a very high threshold.  Far more people are eligible for a disabled railcard than for Blue Badges.  If you mean Blue Badge automatically gives access to disabled discounts *as well as* the current discounts, maybe, but I can see it giving councils a subconscious incentive to deny them more than they already do.