any advice (if any) greaty received

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Anni_nOMin_oustwo said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

If a service isn't performed within a reasonable time the consumer is entitled to seek a price reduction. What is a reasonable time is a question of fact (whatever this means in the real world).

I wouldn't rock the boat until they've finished the work (a soured relationship might affect the quality of work), it sounds like you haven't paid for any labour and I wouldn't be paying the full bill until the job is done. 

Ultimately they should have ensured they could get the parts before the service began. Did you mention the deadline for your travels before you and they agreed to the work OP? 

I did tell them of my departure date from the onset making them aware of this and I don't wan't to sour our relationship because it has to be serviced and MOT'd by them every year.
I did understand there was works required beforehand (nearly 2 weeks allowing for replacement and curing of flooring materials this work was caused by the leak) and this was undertaken with the part hopefully arriving in the meantime.
It's not been 24 hours yet, I will email again perhaps at the end of the week or maybe early next week for an update.
It may mean evrything being put back and making it operational (except for hot running water), ie electric mains, gas and battery supplies reinstated and of course a safety gas test has to be carried out. The supplies to the water heater would be capped off

Thanks OP, was that mentioned verbally or do have it in writing (email, messenger, etc)? 

At the current stage you rights might not matter much as you wish to continue using them for service and MOT, only a personal opinion but I wouldn't want to trust someone to do a job like that were there has been a dispute in the past. 

If they've done work unrelated (directly) to the heater replacement, such as replacing the floor, it would be appropriate to pay for this and then try to come to some amicable agreement regarding making the camper suitable for the holiday and look at having the works done at a later date. 

Hopefully they view you as a loyal customer and wish not to sour the relationship either and a fair compromise can be reached  

Anni_nOMin_oustwo

I have an email telling me the parts are on order and the earliest would be early April, and when do I go away? I told them the date and that I would need to collect it in any event by end April/start of May, so they do have it in writing, but that does not guarentee me that it will be fixed by then

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

tightauldgit said:

I do appreciate but in such an instance they either have to decline the work, give an extended timeframe or run of the risk of giving the consumer a price reduction. 

For the works involved I don't think it is (yet) an unreasonable time, but that might change if the OP told then they needed the camper for x date beforehand. 

'Reasonable time' will include lead time on parts though. And if there are delays outwith the control of the garage then it's reasonable that those are also factored in. Garage would have to show they made reasonable efforts to determine the lead time and to source the parts but they can't be expected to be clairvoyant.

Without getting in to too much of a debate If the parts were itemised then my understanding is this was a contract for the sale of goods and as delivery of the goods was essential at the time the OP could treat the contract at an end and not have to pay for the parts (or be refunded for them).

Without the parts the trader can't perform the service. 

If the parts weren't itemised then, from a recent thread on here, it's a transfer of goods and the price reduction rule would apply (to parts as well as service as the two are under one price and a value has not be assigned specifically to the goods) instead. 

As I say I don't think it's unreasonable due the circumstances but we are at 3 weeks and there obviously comes a point where it is unreasonable. 

The regulations mention reasonable where 

(a)the contract does not expressly fix the time for the service to be performed, and does not say how it is to be fixed, and

(b)information that is to be treated under section 50 as included in the contract does not fix the time either.

Section 50 mentions that anything that is said or written to the consumer, by or on behalf of the trader, about the trader or the service forms part of the contract, something like "of course we'll have it done by your holiday" would form a part of the contract. 

If the holiday deadline was part of the contract and isn't met then there should be a repeat performance but that must be done without significant inconvenience and missing your camper holiday when it was known at the time would fall under that IMO leaving a price reduction up to the full contract price minus any extra works, such as the floor, that have been performed.

The parts issue is a bit like the delivery issue on the other thread, the agreement between the trader and whoever they get the parts from isn't anything to do with the consumer and a trader supplying parts they don't have in their possession needs to ensure their contract is formed with that in mind to cover any risk of the consumer being entitled to treat the contract at an end or being entitled to a price reduction. 

Anni_nOMin_oustwo

Please excuse my ignorance not sure what OP stands for.
I have an email quotaion dated 14th March with all parts and labour listed asking me how I would like to proceed.
I also have a further email... parts are ordered, expected in at suppliers 30 March, expect to arrive there early April.
At worst scenario I guess should parts fail to arrive in time, I agree an interim price to put back and leave a fully working cooker with cold pumped water, then arrange the new heater to be fitted on return from our hoiday later.
It is most inconvenient when I have to get a train and taxi there and vice versa.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Anni_nOMin_oustwo said:

Please excuse my ignorance not sure what OP stands for.

That just means original/opening poster, so yourself  

Anni_nOMin_oustwo said:

I have an email telling me the parts are on order and the earliest would be early April, and when do I go away? I told them the date and that I would need to collect it in any event by end April/start of May, so they do have it in writing, but that does not guarentee me that it will be fixed by then

Just to check OP regarding timeframes, generally it would be what was stated before or at the time the contract was formed, as they are asking when you go away presumably they knew you were but had it been discussed as of the time you replied to their email on the 14th to agree to quotation? 

If it had then I would say they should put back what they need to make it suitable all at no charge and only charge you for the work to the floor or such. They should then perform the heater replacement (and taking out/putting back in for fitting) after the holiday, probably on a new contract. 

If it hadn't then it can be very subjective, I don't know what the costs are (or how they relate to your personal financial circumstances, which you don't have to say ) but if the parts don't come in time you could for example agree to pay for the taking out but they put it back at their cost and then start again after the holiday.

That said he one thing that swings in your favour is

Anni_nOMin_oustwo said:

I also have a further email... parts are ordered, expected in at suppliers 30 March, expect to arrive there early April.

Although that's a bit non-specific early April is different to the end of April and it would seem to be a change or addition to the contract with both you and the garage agreed, with that in mind if the parts were itemised on the quote you could express another date towards the end of April for the parts (allowing enough time for fitting) and then treat the contract at an end. In that situation I don't think you would (or at least should) have to pay for the first lot of taking out and putting back aspect, however this then goes back to the state of the relationship and future works so it's a tricky one really  

tightauldgit

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

tightauldgit said:

I do appreciate but in such an instance they either have to decline the work, give an extended timeframe or run of the risk of giving the consumer a price reduction. 

For the works involved I don't think it is (yet) an unreasonable time, but that might change if the OP told then they needed the camper for x date beforehand. 

'Reasonable time' will include lead time on parts though. And if there are delays outwith the control of the garage then it's reasonable that those are also factored in. Garage would have to show they made reasonable efforts to determine the lead time and to source the parts but they can't be expected to be clairvoyant.

Without getting in to too much of a debate If the parts were itemised then my understanding is this was a contract for the sale of goods and as delivery of the goods was essential at the time the OP could treat the contract at an end and not have to pay for the parts (or be refunded for them).

Without the parts the trader can't perform the service. 

If the parts weren't itemised then, from a recent thread on here, it's a transfer of goods and the price reduction rule would apply (to parts as well as service as the two are under one price and a value has not be assigned specifically to the goods) instead. 

As I say I don't think it's unreasonable due the circumstances but we are at 3 weeks and there obviously comes a point where it is unreasonable. 

The regulations mention reasonable where 

(a)the contract does not expressly fix the time for the service to be performed, and does not say how it is to be fixed, and

(b)information that is to be treated under section 50 as included in the contract does not fix the time either.

Section 50 mentions that anything that is said or written to the consumer, by or on behalf of the trader, about the trader or the service forms part of the contract, something like "of course we'll have it done by your holiday" would form a part of the contract. 

If the holiday deadline was part of the contract and isn't met then there should be a repeat performance but that must be done without significant inconvenience and missing your camper holiday when it was known at the time would fall under that IMO leaving a price reduction up to the full contract price minus any extra works, such as the floor, that have been performed.

The parts issue is a bit like the delivery issue on the other thread, the agreement between the trader and whoever they get the parts from isn't anything to do with the consumer and a trader supplying parts they don't have in their possession needs to ensure their contract is formed with that in mind to cover any risk of the consumer being entitled to treat the contract at an end or being entitled to a price reduction. 

You often make claims like this but I suspect that it's a fundamental misunderstanding of the law. The law will look at what is reasonable and any third party relationship for the supply of necessary parts absolutely will be considered when looking at what is reasonable for the supplier to do. 

If the supplier tells you he can fix something in 2 weeks while knowing a part has an 8 week lead time then it's unreasonable. If he quotes you 10 and then the supplier delivers late and it ends up being 14 then that could well be reasonable if the trader has taken reasonable steps to source the parts in a timely manner. Equally as much as a consumer can cry that they demand it's fixed in a month it's not reasonable to expect that. 

Nowhere does the law suggest that traders should be held responsible for things outside of their control or their lack of clairvoyance. 

The customer in this instance is probably within their rights to pay for the work already done and ask  for the return of the motorhome in  usable condition but that's not going to make the parts come any faster or get them a working water heater. 

Anni_nOMin_oustwo

I wish I had a negotiator on my side that could realise a financial solution should I need one, I just usually roll over and give in lol, On my 1st visit presenting the motorhome to them with water spraying out everywhere, I told the service manager then that I would be going away In the near future informing him of the date. Hence afterwards when ordering the parts they asked me again when I was going away, so it could be argued because they asked that question, they were aware of my holiday. I can give them another 2 weeks but then I would definately need to have it back in a useable state. I have a little more wriggle room yet and pray that the part comes in beforehand.
Thanks for all your comments, sounds like I will have to negotiate a spiders web

tightauldgit

Anni_nOMin_oustwo said:

I wish I had a negotiator on my side that could realise a financial solution should I need one, I just usually roll over and give in lol, On my 1st visit presenting the motorhome to them with water spraying out everywhere, I told the service manager then that I would be going away In the near future informing him of the date. Hence afterwards when ordering the parts they asked me again when I was going away, so it could be argued because they asked that question, they were aware of my holiday. I can give them another 2 weeks but then I would definately need to have it back in a useable state. I have a little more wriggle room yet and pray that the part comes in beforehand.
Thanks for all your comments, sounds like I will have to negotiate a spiders web

Perhaps a stupid question but have you raised the issue with them? Politely inform them that you're a bit nervous with the delays that it's not going to be ready for your holidays and if that is going to be the case would they be happy to put it back together and complete the work after you come back.

It feels a bit (perhaps understandably) as if you've gone from 'there's a problem' to 'what are my legal rights' without the middle step of having a conversation with the trader. 

TELLIT01

Anni...... is really somewhere between the rocks and a hard place.  Working on the assumption that the company has ordered the parts, and the delay is beyond their control, the options are very limited.  If the parts don't arrive in time and the OP can't manage without the motorhome, the company needs to be given sufficient time to reassemble the elements which need to be reinstated.  I would certainly be looking for that work to be done at a reduced price, if not free of charge.  There would seem to be little to be gained by saying the motorhome will be taken elsewhere as presumably they would have the same supply issue.

Anni_nOMin_oustwo

"Thank you for the update xxxxx, this of course is very concerning news. I hope your engineers can come up with a solution if your suppliers fail to deliver the part.

 At the very least I would like the oven and pump reinstating for my holiday, so that I can at least cook by gas oven, ring or (electric hotplate on hook up) plus have pumped cold water to the sinks shower and toilet. The very latest I would need to collect it from you would be Thursday 4th of May. which would allow me just about enough time to prepare it for the journey early the following week."  

I do hope it will arrive before that time for this scenario be avoided.
This was my reply to them yesterday, so you are right I may have jumped the gun a little bit, but better having a little knowledge on the matter shed by all you kind contributors. I will await for an update, but not too long