Private tenancy - no gas safety/deposit protection certificate given

Yorkie006

Hi,
I previously rented a property with someone else on a joint agreement. The LA gave us all the required paperwork at the time.
Some time after that, the other person moved out and I signed a new tenancy agreement in my name only. The LA said they would move the deposit from the old tenancy to the new one but I was never given the certificate or reference number.
The gas safety check was done not too long ago but the plumber has not asked me to sign the form and did not give me the pink copy either (during all the previous checks, we had to sign the form and were given a copy).
If the LA/LL decide to give me a Section 21 notice, will it be valid? The property is in England.
Thank you!

propertyrental

Yorkie006 said:

Hi,
I previously rented a property with someone else on a joint agreement. The LA gave us all the required paperwork at the time.
Some time after that, the other person moved out and I signed a new tenancy agreement in my name only.
The LA said they would move the deposit from the old tenancy to the new one but I was never given the certificate or reference number.
Your joint tenancy ended. The deposit should have been returned to the joint tenants (or 'lead' tenant).
A new tenancy was created. A new deposit should have been taken, and registered.
With the consent of the joint tenants, and for convenience, the actual cash could have been retained by the LL/agent and re-registered, but the legality of 'return and re payment' is unaltered. You should have received the Prescribed Information just as if the cash was returned and then re-paid.

The gas safety check was done not too long ago but the plumber has not asked me to sign the form no requirement to sign. and did not give me the pink copy either (during all the previous checks, we had to sign the form and were given a copy).
It is the landlord's obligation (not the plumber, though the plumber might do so on the LL's behalf) to give the tenant a copy
* at the start of every new tenancy, as here, and then
* every 12 months

If the LA/LL decide to give me a Section 21 notice, will it be valid? The property is in England.
Thank you!

No it will be invalid.

Whether you choose to point this out to the L is up to you, though getting a gas report every 12 months is for your safety.

tacpot12

I don't think the Gas Safety Certificate (CP12) will be invalid if you haven't signed it, but you are supposed to be given a copy within 28 days of the inspection, and if they miss this deadline, then a Section 21 Notice would not be valid.

It would fall to the Letting Agent to prove to the court that they had issued the CP12 copy to you within 28 days, and also that they had protected the deposit in your name within 30 days of the new tenancy. If you receive notice from the courts that the landlord is seeking a possession order, you can state then that you don't think the tenancy deposit was protected within 30 days and that you haven't received a copy of the CP12, or didn't receive it within 28 days. 

The landlord can fix these problems though; by redoing the CP12 and sending the copy to you within 28 days and returning your tenancy deposit. So they will eventually be able to evict you.

Looking at this obectively, your gas appliances are safe (they have been check recently), and your deposit is either protected, or you will get it back if the landlord tries to evict you. I'm not sure I would rock the boat at the moment.

If you were named as the lead tenant for the deposit protection scheme and it is a scheme that will return the money to you, then I'm not sure I would rock the boat. If you weren't the lead tenant, and it is a scheme that will return an amount to each tenant, then it might depend on what has already happened regarding the tenant that has moved out. Did they get any of their deposit back? Are they still owed anything that you as lead tenant might be liable to pay them? 

If you are not happy with the situation regarding the deposit, you need to write to them and ask them to sort this out and give them a reasonable time to do so. Six to eight weeks might be reasonable. I would not remind them that a section 21 notice won't be valid until they return your deposit. Just keep the copies of your tenancy agreement so that you can show that it wasn't protected within 30 days of the new tenancy. 

Yorkie006

Thanks for the replied.
If what @tacpot12 says about the deadlines, then they failed on both occasions. The tenancy agreement was signed in summer 2021 and no deposit protection certificate received to date, and the gas check was done about 6 weeks ago and no certificate received either. In the previous years the plumber doing the check always left the pink copy on the day. Maybe they changed the way they do things now or the plumber forgot, but that doesn't change the fact that I haven't received it.
I know they will be able to evict me if they want to, but not having the paperwork in order will give me more time. I am currently in the process of looking for another place (the LA/LL don't know this), so extra time would be helpful...
They keep telling me that if they got a new tenant, they would put the rent up significantly but they can't do that while I'm here as the tenancy agreement specifies by how much/how often they can increase the rent. Interestingly, my next door neighbour in virtually same house pays £100/month less that me now (and LA still think my rent is low by today's standards). I'm just hoping I'll find another property before the LA/LL get too greedy and decide to replacing me with a new tenant paying higher rent.

km1500

Don't forget you might need a reference. The first think a new prospective landlord will ask is where you have been living previously and the contact details of your previous landlord.

Yorkie006

km1500 said:

Don't forget you might need a reference. The first think a new prospective landlord will ask is where you have been living previously and the contact details of your previous landlord.

I'm looking to buy so that won't be a problem. Thanks anyway.

mi-key

The gas engineer should have given you the copy, but its possible he either forgot, or he forwarded it to the letting agent instead for them to keep on file ? 

Yorkie006

mi-key said:

The gas engineer should have given you the copy, but its possible he either forgot, or he forwarded it to the letting agent instead for them to keep on file ? 

They can keep it on file all they want, but the law says they have to provide the tenant with a copy within 28 days - and they haven't done that.

This is from the H&S Executive website:
You must also arrange for an annual gas safety check to be carried out every 12 months by a Gas Safe registered engineer . You must keep a record of the safety check for 2 years and issue a copy to each existing tenant within 28 days of the check being completed and issue a copy to any new tenants before they move in.

propertyrental

mi-key said:

The gas engineer should have given you the copy, No but its possible he either forgot, or he forwarded it to the letting agent instead for them to keep on file ? Or he did what he has to do - provided the paperwork to the person who instructed him to undertake the inspection - ie the landlord or LL's agent

Yorkie006 said:

They can keep it on file all they want, but the law says they (the landlord or his agent!) have to provide the tenant with a copy within 28 days - and they haven't done that.
The engineer has no obligation to give the tenant anything.

This is from the H&S Executive website:
You (ie the landlord) must also arrange for an annual gas safety check to be carried out every 12 months by a Gas Safe registered engineer . You the LL must keep a record of the safety check for 2 years and issue a copy to each existing tenant within 28 days of the check being completed and issue a copy to any new tenants before they move in.

The engineer has done nothing wrong. All the legal obligations are on the landlord.

MobileSaver

propertyrental said:

mi-key said:

the law says they (the landlord or his agent!) have to provide the tenant with a copy within 28 days - and they haven't done that.

The engineer has done nothing wrong. All the legal obligations are on the landlord.

Presumably it comes down to who is the most credible witness in court on the day? In court the landlord says the engineer (who has little skin in the game) has provided a witness statement that they left a copy with the tenant while the tenant has a vested interest in saying they didn't...

It does seem one of the more petty rules given that the safety check was actually done and the report is available. Is the omission of getting the tenant to sign as proof always a fatal blow for the landlord?

Similarly with the deposit, if the deposit was protected and the deposit scheme says they posted the details but the new tenant says they didn't receive them...

Does anyone know how these things typically play out in court when legal obligations were followed but tenants say they didn't receive the relevant documents?

tacpot12

The courts look at what evidence these is and decide what is the most likely thing to have happened.

When deciding whether the tenant has been given certain information, it think that a Judge will take into account what the tenant agrees they received. So if they agree that they were given a copy of the gas safety certificate, epc, electrical safety inspection, legionella risk report and all the manuals for the appliances in the property, but the tenant wants to halt an evection because they say they weren’t given a Right to Rent guide, but the letting agent states that they use a checklist to prepare the documents going to new tenants and that the Right to Rent guide is on the checklist, I think a judge would favour the landlord. There should be no need for the tenant to acknowledge service of the Right to Rent guide.