Can anyone help me identify what is in my electrical meter box please?

Gerry1

Scot_39 said:

Gerry1 said:

I hope that you're not replacing storage heaters with panel radiators or anything else using daytime electricity?  That would be a very expensive mistake.

Panel heaters - generally very true.  But if an ASHP with a high COP  or multiple air to air reverse air conditioner / air conditioner heaters - do they have COP or an equivalent ?

So arguably if flat rate/COP <= off peak rate - beats NSH.

Unless you end up one with high standby / vampire loads all year round - as others report.

Agreed, but I'd been wondering whether the OP had been bamboozled by a 'fishy' company into believing that 'updating the electrics' with 'modern' non-storage radiators filled with moonrock would be sooooo much better than NSHs !

Scot_39

Spoonie_Turtle said:

Scot_39 said:

Gerry1 said:

I hope that you're not replacing storage heaters with panel radiators or anything else using daytime electricity?  That would be a very expensive mistake.

Panel heaters - generally very true.

But if an ASHP with a high COP  or multiple air to air reverse air conditioner / air conditioner heaters - do they have COP or an equivalent ?

So arguably if flat rate/COP <= off peak rate - beats NSH.

Unless you end up one with high standby / vampire loads all year round - as others report.

Generally can hope to get a COP of 2 to 3 (anything else is a bonus).  So depending on the exact rates will differ, but then what's the point of nighttime electricity?  Heat pumps are more efficient when it's warmer out, so daytime not nighttime.  Even for water.  So no point paying more during the daytime (peak rate rather than flat) than you have to.

NSH and off peak charging, may well represent a cheaper solution for many in the medium term, than the capital cost of an ASHP and wet system and/or home insulation upgrades - to maximise cop ratios.

With SR electric at 30p+/kWh, a cop of 3 you pay c10p+.  With a cop of 2 you pay c15p+.
There are many E7 off peak Tariffs floating around that 15p level.
One region with EDF new rates just published still below the 10p.

And with NSH, zero risk of vampire loads all summer.

So it is by no means clear ashp are the obvious way to go for everyone even purely on running costs.

Then there are the capital costs.

And servicing costs.


Then there are basic practicalities - like 100,000s if not millions of flats where ashp just not an option.

 Even with govt grants ( 5-6k Eng) BG and others asking for c3k.  Just for the pump to replace gas boiler, without radiator or underfloor heating etc upgrades to allow lower flow temps and higher cop.

When that discount disappears or reduces, just as it has for hybrids and bev, the cost premium over nsh will pay for many a years premium on electric units.

Might not reduce generation demand as much, but user cost - upfront capital especially and running - will govern many decisions.

Without the grant, ashp a luxury many simply cannot afford.  Even with it the secondary costs are frequently non trivial.

And like BEV and the promised price reductions over time to ICE equivalence, ASHP to gas combi equivalence on cost likely to be yet another false promise.

Scot_39

Oh and as you yourself admit.

The cop drops when colder, so winter, autumn and spring evenings and overnight, just when people's heating demand is maximised.

When the efficiency is needed, it just isn't that brilliant.

Cynically ASHP, and inherent low winter cops of many standard models, worsening as move North in UK, due to 3-4C ave yearly temp drops, the wrong tech, green washed, to support the abandonment of domestic gas boilers.

Yes you can get cold temp optimised ones, but no doubt at an even higher cost.


And my uncle did the sums, in often brutally cold and windy rural Sutherland, and went gshp, despite c£12k premium, as the winter cops were so far apart.  And due to construction and location Heating bills over twice those in Ofgem cap TDCVs.

Spoonie_Turtle

Scot_39 said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

Scot_39 said:

Gerry1 said:

I hope that you're not replacing storage heaters with panel radiators or anything else using daytime electricity?  That would be a very expensive mistake.

Panel heaters - generally very true.

But if an ASHP with a high COP  or multiple air to air reverse air conditioner / air conditioner heaters - do they have COP or an equivalent ?

So arguably if flat rate/COP <= off peak rate - beats NSH.

Unless you end up one with high standby / vampire loads all year round - as others report.

Generally can hope to get a COP of 2 to 3 (anything else is a bonus).  So depending on the exact rates will differ, but then what's the point of nighttime electricity?  Heat pumps are more efficient when it's warmer out, so daytime not nighttime.  Even for water.  So no point paying more during the daytime (peak rate rather than flat) than you have to.

NSH and off peak charging, may well represent a cheaper solution for many in the medium term, than the capital cost of an ASHP and wet system and/or home insulation upgrades - to maximise cop ratios.

……

So it is by no means clear ashp are the obvious way to go for everyone even purely on running costs.

I wasn't recommending ASHP, just questioning why anyone would consider them on Econony 7 instead of flat rate.

Scot_39

I am not a particular fan of E7, it didn't particularly suit traditional nsh users anyway.

I actually think E10 is better in many respects,  when works as here in my region as a split night, afternoon and mid evening tariff.

As that provides a practical consistent way to encourage users to avoid current peak demands around 6pm.
So their would be no need for schemes such as the NG DFS if more were encouraged to avoid such peaks, and the fixed times mean the habits would become easier / more ingrained.

No one really wants to be looking at 1/2 hr price updates to decide when to turn oven,  kettle or washing machine etc on, 8pm in winter as my evening 2 hr slot, every night far easier to remember and adjust to, etc.

But because it and others werent guar support by Ofgem, now carries a significant price premium over E7.

sasquatch77

Hi all. thank you all for such detailed responses, its really helpful.  We are completely refurbing the property and are installing gas central heating.  We currently don't have any gas into the property.  There were 4 Creda NSH in the property which were ancient. We turned three on the lowest settings and to my horror (according to the smart meter) they cost £10 overnight!  When we upgrade all the electrics we are moving the consumer unit location, as its currently in the bottom of a kitchen cupboard and the room will become a bedroom.  As we are relocating it over 3m away I believe we need a spur somewhere and had hoped it can go in the meter box but I have no idea if that's appropriate or not.  I was hoping the box on the right in the meter cupboard can be removed and the spur placed. 

sasquatch77

Qyburn said:

The thing on the right in the meter box is an isolator, allowing power to be switched off from one place. Some DNOs require this if the consumer unit is more than a certain distance from the meter.

We are planning on moving the consumer unit over 3m and were told we would need a spur (?), perhaps we already have one..

chris_n

The isolater (box on the right) is all you need.

sasquatch77

chris_n said:

The isolater (box on the right) is all you need.

thank you

Scot_39

Guessing your electrical contractor will have to rerun new cables as necessary into meter box isolator switch if the current ones won't  reach the new  location.

As well as sort all the consumer unit ouputs - the wiring to all lights, sockets etc.

A spur is generally the term for a non 13A plug and socket outlet connection i.e. with a permanent wired connection - common for high demand devices - or wet locations like bathrooms. Often switched, some just fused ( fused only now in bathrooms apparently).

A large nsh actually draws more than the c3kW max from a standard 13a uk socket / plug. 

And for NSH that would have been supplied from point to point wiring all the way back to a 20A iirc mcb in consumer unit under wiring regs.


Unless you percevered with nsh, the initial charges are higher than normal, as takes a while to heat bricks - which they then hold for days.  2-3 charge cycles typical min to settle.


Did you consider modern alternatives - hhr panels, Ashp rather than gas etc ?

Last neighbour to get quote for tapping into gas mains was iirc  in £1000s.  He decided not to, but went wood burner instead for LR.